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Rock Guard Question/opinions...450C JD

TimT

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Feb 12, 2008
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Heavy Construction driver/operator
I am installing bottom rollers on my '79 450C as planned, I bought the new bolts for the rock guards from a local supply house, the roller bolts came with the rollers, I finished one side and had enough new bolts on hand to install the two guards on the left side. BUT.. I did not have the cross bolts yet or the spacer tubes.... I figured I could just push the new bolts through when they arrive...BUT, again like a dummy I forgot the tubes. Now to be honest, I am thinking of just putting the bolts in and forget the tubes..."I relay don't want to pull that outside guard off again" The guards are tight against the roller castings and can not move inward. How important is it to have the tubes over the bolts?? The old ones were pretty bent up, tubes and all. I just do not see the real need for tubes/spacers if I just snug up the new carriage bolts..... What do you think?? anyone else skip the spacer tubes?? its just pipe.
 

Scrub Puller

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Yair,
Be a mistake to leave out the spacers I reckon.
When tightened up they convert the rock guards into a rigid assembly. Without them the guards would have reduced lateral strength . . . I would be surprised if you could not get the spacers in there by loosening off one guard and slacking off the track.

Cheers.
 

td25c

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indiana
My take on it is without the spacer tubes the cross bolts wont stay tight ?
I might use some sch 80 pipe for spacer tubes cut to length . 4 per side ?
Rock guards are a pain in the ass when changing bottom rollers but they sure help keeping the track in place when in rough going .
 

TimT

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I don't think the bolts can pull through the guards. They are carriage bolts that are flush against the rock guards. I can see that spacers add some strength to the bolts, but with the bottom of the rock guards tight against the roller casting I cant see how they can pull the guards inward or outward. But I guess its just a tube of grease and one guard to come off to put them in as they should be. At least I have not put the guards on the other side of the tractor yet, not to big a deal, I just got carried away and never thought of the dam spacers.
 

catman13

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if your tracks are still loose, jack up 1 side and the track may have enough slack to reach your hand up in side with the spacer.
 

John C.

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The rock guards do nothing but hold the dirt in to wear on the rollers like lapping compound. In my world we throw away the rock guards and never waste money on them ever again.

If you leave the spacers out the rock guards with pull in and rub on the rollers. It will also crack the gussets in the rock guards. There is a reason the spacers are put in there.
 

TimT

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Well today I pulled off the outside guard, all my bolts came in and I got some heavy wall tubing cut to length. Pulled all the rollers on the right side and guards. Next couple days I'll be done with the roller job. I will put the rock guards back on, as there seems to be a lot of different opinions on the subject of leaving them off or not. JD manuel says DO NOT leave the guards off or cut sections out. It came with 'em on so I'll put em back on. Besides I already bought all new bolts.
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Welder Dave

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It seems unless you're working in a lot of rocks, rock guards just cause increased undercarriage wear as the mud and dirt gets packed in and has nowhere to go.
 

catman13

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refrigeration engineer/excavation contractor
you may want to put a new cutting edge on soon it wont start wearing the bottom of the blade.
they keep the tracks on when working the woods also.
my dad had a d2 the tracks keeped coming off when clearing land , then he put rock guards on and never had the track problem again.
 

Scrub Puller

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Yair. . .

my dad had a d2 the tracks keeped coming off when clearing land , then he put rock guards on and never had the track problem again.

I agree in some applications they are not necessary but, if you are working over timber, rock, or clambering around in steep country they can make a helluva difference, especially when the chains get a little snaky.

Cheers.
 

TimT

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Yep, thats why I will keep them on I guess, my chains are worn quite a bit, I had the JD dealer out, and I decided that the bottom rollers will extend my chain/rail life by several hundred hours if I am lucky. Sprockets are not too bad yet,they and idlers will wear more evenly with new rollers also. My home/land projects are in woods and hilly ground. Mostly I have a pond I want to clean out this summer if I can get it dried out.
The old girl runs very well, and everything seems to work decently for an old machine, blade is a little sloppy, but not bad at all, does not settle even with the weight of the machine on it. I have been under it and can not find any missing bolts, cracks, welds, engine leaks, etc."its never been painted", burns no oil, starts great even in cold weather. Hour meter works and says 4800 hrs. I think for the money I paid, I got a decent old 450C. I spent a total of about 1,200 bucks on all new guard bolts and all new rollers. On the cutting edge & end bits they have lots of wear left in them for me.
 

Bls repair

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My philosophy ,if you put new track parts with old track parts , new parts wear out faster.
 

TimT

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My philosophy ,if you put new track parts with old track parts , new parts wear out faster.
Yeah, but I don't plan on using this machine to make a living. I don't want to buy new chains because they have hours left in them, the rollers had none. New rollers with old chain hurt nothing at all. Thats what all the "experts" say. Now if you put new sprockets on old chain, thats going to eat your chain/rails fast. Bottom rollers with good flanges will keep the chain going a long time. I spent a 1200 bucks, not 3500 dollars for new chain, sprockets, and rollers. I only need rollers for my hours of use.If I put 500 hrs on this machine it will take me ten years.
 

ETMF 58 White

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Feb 21, 2011
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TimT: I have to put at least one bottom roller on next week and I might just go ahead and replace all of them. My JD700H is the only dozer I've ever had (out of 5) that has these dang rock guards, and I'm not sure they are worth the hassle I'm about to get removing them. I started to take them off today but the cross bolts are seized in the tubes, and apparently both the bolt and the tube have a bend in them in some of them. (I can see the tube making an elliptical motion when I turn the big bolt with an impact wrench). Did you have any tubes and cross bolts that just wouldn't come out, and if so then what did you do? I'm scratching my head on how I'm going to even get my impact wrench on the smaller bolts holding the rock guards to the roller frame until I get these big cross bolts out of my way.

Any ideas? Torch the whole mess off and buy new bolts and tubes?
 

Scrub Puller

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Yair . . . .

ETMF 58 White. As has been mentioned up thread your application will determine if you need rock guards.

If the tubes are seized onto the cross bolts torch the cross bolts off both ends.

Generally speaking I found Samson rod and nuts a much better option than the part number or bolts from the bolt shop . . . the tube is just a heavy wall pipe a loose fit on the rod size.

Cheers.
 

DMiller

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My old Allis had no rock guards when I bought it, my donor machine came with them intact(three section ends and center) and I going to swap them to mine at least front and rear to minimize the amount of large debris to get in around the idlers and sprockets, had a small limb get between idler and rail was enough to roll the rail surprisingly.
 

TimT

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TimT: I have to put at least one bottom roller on next week and I might just go ahead and replace all of them. My JD700H is the only dozer I've ever had (out of 5) that has these dang rock guards, and I'm not sure they are worth the hassle I'm about to get removing them. I started to take them off today but the cross bolts are seized in the tubes, and apparently both the bolt and the tube have a bend in them in some of them. (I can see the tube making an elliptical motion when I turn the big bolt with an impact wrench). Did you have any tubes and cross bolts that just wouldn't come out, and if so then what did you do? I'm scratching my head on how I'm going to even get my impact wrench on the smaller bolts holding the rock guards to the roller frame until I get these big cross bolts out of my way.

Any ideas? Torch the whole mess off and buy new bolts and tubes?
Yes sir, mine had some bent cross bolts and tubes.. with mine I just removed the nuts and pounded them out to clear " from the inside outward" .. they only need to move enough to clear the guard. then burned off the bent ones after I got the guards out from under the machine.
But if I could not have done that, I would just cut the heads off. I bought new 9"? carriage bolts and got some heavy walled tubing from the local welders supply cut to length. Replaced them all. No sense in even trying to use them again. Junk. Also I got all new bolts for the news rollers and all new rock guard bolts. My guards are one piece, not segments. All the bolts came out very well with an 1/2" impact...a few needed to have a 3/4 breaker bar to get on them because the pads were too close for the impact. I did the whole job in about a day and a half. On a 450 JD you CAN just take off one side of the guards and loosen the other to get the rollers in. I took them both off on each side though... much easier. Set the rollers on the chain and use the blade to lower the machine to start the roller bolts, move to next roller and repeat. Worked nicely.
As far as needing them, the jury is not clear... The Manuel for this old machine says DO NOT leave the guards off, they add stability to the track frames. I figured for the price of bolts and some extra work I would keep them on. I have seen a few that did not have them. I have lots of woods and some steep banks around here, I figured I better have them. My rails are well worn and the guards might save a jumped track.
 
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DMiller

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Could always cut them down to three piece? Similar to what many newer designs use. Ends to guide rails, center to displace debris.
 

ETMF 58 White

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image.jpg image.jpg Well I got the rock guards off today, with the aid of the blue wrench to cut the cross bolts. Now, to replace that rear roller, I've got to drop the rear rock guard. And to do that, it appears I have to remove the rock deflectors that are protecting the final drives. Four bolts holding each of them on. Three bolts came out with a 36mm socket on a 1 inch drive impact. (Three quarter impact wouldn't move them.). But the socket won't fit on the 4th bolt; not enough clearance. I don't have a 36mm box end wrench, so I'll have the local fabricator cut one out on his water jet or plasma table.

Attached a photo, and also a photo of a little project we knocked out in two days with two tractors cutting to grade. This is the type of ground I work in my part of the South, so I really don't need those silly rock guards. But I'm going to put them back on because, well, I guess I paid for them. And who knows, I might want to retire to Colorado someday and take the little tractor with me.
 
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