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opinions of fiat allis 16b

Discussion in 'Dozers' started by hd16b, Mar 22, 2011.

  1. hd16b

    hd16b Active Member

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    I was wondering what people who have run this machine liked and disliked about it.I bought one about three years ago to use on my farm and am very pleased with it.
     
  2. td25c

    td25c Senior Member

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    Howdy hd16b. I'l post a few pictures & details on the fiat to cat bottom roller conversion on this thread.


    We did this back in the summer of 2011.My fiat pads and rails were 75% on my 16b but my rollers were shot.Long story short due to cost of new fiat rollers we converted to cat d7g rollers.

    The first issue was the fiat rails are about 5/8 inch wider than the cat d7 rails so I had to sacrifice a little steel buy machining off about 5/16 inch on each side of the inner flange of the new d7 roller so it would fit the fiat rail.That went pretty well then we got to drill some holes in the track frames.The bolt pattern was close enough on the width of the pillow blocks that I was able to use half of the existing bolt holes in the frame so that helped allot.Top roller in the picture is and old fiat and bottom is the new machined cat roller.
     

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  3. td25c

    td25c Senior Member

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    We also had to notch out about 1/4 inch on the track frames on each side and on the gussets "green arrows". used 13/16 inch drill in the magnetic press for the new holes "red arrows". Luckily the fiat frame is not tapped for threads,it uses a threaded block with two bolt holes in it so we just need to drill the holes,See "red arrows" in second picture. We used all single flange rollers for the project . Any questions on a 16B holler any time. I've been running mine for about 17 years now and cant think of to many bolts that I havent had out of it. I like the tractor overall.
     

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  4. hd16b

    hd16b Active Member

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    Thanks a millon td25c.I bought my 16b on almost the same day my little girl was born in feb 08 and when i got it home it would not pull.After alot of testing and asking around i pulled the converter apart and found the nut that is supposed to be tightened to 900 ft pounds was not even hand tight.At the same time i went throug the transmisson to fix an oil transfer promblem and the rearend because it had 100thousands backlash. Been running very well since but the undercarriage is going to need some attention mainly segments and rollers and nobody anywhere can help me and i do not want to sell the tractor. would love to talk to you.
     
  5. Iowan

    Iowan Active Member

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    Looks good td25c
     
  6. Cat_man320

    Cat_man320 Well-Known Member

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    I have access to maybe 20 rollers for a 16B . I owned one for almost 20 years and have to say it was a fine machine . They need preventive maintenance though . change fluid and filters often . Had some serious issues over the years but that is part of the deal. I had to replace the tranny , i rebuilt the engine and put new outboard bearings on both side . my only complaint is the stupid way they try to seal the drive sprockets with the metal plates rubbing together .
    Great job on the conversion to cat. I have a friend that did the same on his machine but he went with a total Cat replacement ...rails, sprockets etc . Just wondering what the cost of a new roller is today.
     
  7. ror76a

    ror76a Well-Known Member

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    Michigan
    I bought a 16B last summer, it was not my first choice for a bigger dozer, but it is what I found, and the price was right. My machine is in great condition the meter says 3300 hours and there are some signs that it may be correct. I haven’t put a lot of hours on it yet, but so far it has burned the tips off of two injectors, easy enough to fix, but finding parts took a couple weeks. Aside from that it has been a couple hoses so can't really complain for a machine of that age. The issue that concerns me with it now is that it smokes excessively. White smoke still runs great, lots of power, but lots of smoke. The water stays up, and no bubbles in it. It also has a hard time starting in even mildly cold weather; I just hope it's not low compression.
     
  8. mikebramel

    mikebramel Senior Member

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    White smoke and poor cold weather starting would be low compression usually
     
  9. td25c

    td25c Senior Member

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    A little problem I had with the 16b was the 45 dregree suction elbo on the bottom of the transmission pump .It would develop cracks from the heat over time and the dozer would feel like the transmission or torque convertor was slipping from the air entering the system.plus at 80$ a piece I got tired of replacing it. I cut about 18" off the suction tube to allow me to use a 24" piece of flexible suction hose in place of the elbo.No more suction leaks or spending 80$ for an 1-1/2" rubber elbo. Also on the table are the outbord sprocket seals that Cat_man320 mentioned and a puller I made to remove the steering clutch coller drive plates from the taperd splined shafts on the rear end and final drive . I've made several tools over the years for the 16b. I even found the original cardbord template for the adapter plate when we installed the cummins engine.:D If I remember correct, the allis chalmers 17000 MK II engine would white smoke quite abit when the engine was cold,made good power and would clear up after it warmed up.
     

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    Last edited: Mar 24, 2013
  10. Cat_man320

    Cat_man320 Well-Known Member

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    If you have white smoke after changing a few injectors , me thinks you still have a dead cylinder or injector is pumping too much fuel in on the piston . after the machine warms up ,go to low idle and crack each injector individually . You should have fuel peezing out around the nut and a pronounced miss that is clearly detectable . if the engine doesn't miss after checking all injectors , it may be low compression . White smoke = unburned fuel , blue smoke = lube oil getting in on top of piston,. When idling , does the engine have any blow-by coming from breather pipe or engine oil filler spout ? If you have excessive blow-by , chances are when you burned the tip off the injectors , you might have burned a hole in a piston. If its a burnt piston , you should notice the engine is missing on a cylinder. There are several other things that could cause white smoke , ie: bent valve , blown head gasket and even a restricted air intake system but you still should notice a pronounced miss and down on power . hope this helps find your problem .
     
  11. D6 Merv

    D6 Merv Senior Member

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    Hi 25C
    mind telling us what model cummins you repowered your 16 with ? And what happened to the 17000 ?
    Cheers merv :drinkup
     
  12. td25c

    td25c Senior Member

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    Hi D6 Merv

    We used a 855 big cam II 300 cummins for the repower project www.heavyequipmentforums.com/showthread.php?11819-16b-engine-repower

    Had some bad luck with the 17000 engine not long after I bought the dozer.About halfway in on a clearing job the crankshaft broke.We drug it back to the shop & called the Fiat Allis dealer on a new crank.They said it would cost 5500$............I said Hell no......... Ended up buying a 1982 Ford CL 9000 tractor for 2500$ and drove it home for the engine donor.I have allways liked the cummins engines for power and durability.The 17000 ran great and made good power but when the crank broke I had to try something else. I like the dozer and plan on keeping it for the duration :)
     
  13. Mactractor

    Mactractor Member

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    td25c, Iwould be very interested to know which crank your AC 17000 had. I`ve been told all the late model 844 ci engines (17000 & 25000) that were fitted with the Japanese made 6 counterweight crankshaft all gave prolific bottom end trouble. Broken shafts, run bearings, split main bearing carriers, longatudinal cracks in the shafts were all common. Made machine owners who were of normally sober habits just turn to the bottle! Some of them who really liked the engines aside from the bottom end failures and the constant attention needed to be given to the German Bosch fuel system, got crankshafts out of older 844s (16000 & 21000 engines that had the 12 counterweight crankshafts). When those were fitted, no more bottom end problems.
     
  14. td25c

    td25c Senior Member

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    Thats a pretty good assessment of it Mactractor. Yes, my 16b had the japanese crank in it. We also looked at a few used cranks before commiting to the cummins repower and all of them had small cracks starting from the oil gallys on the crank journals.The japanese made a great motorcycle engine.........I dont know what happend on the 17000 crankshaft? bad steel,Poor forging, or maybe counterweight desighn change:beatsme We had an older hd16 cable blade that ran troublefree for years without any engine problems so your story sounds correct.Thanks for sharing that Mactractor.
     
  15. hd16b

    hd16b Active Member

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    td25c, my 16b has started leaking fuel at one of the delvery valves on the pump and the diesel shop said it was something that i could not fix was wondering if you have run across this before. would love to post some pictures of the root rake that i had made for the semi u blade but do not know how to post. on another topic i am 37 years old and have a bucyrus 22b dragline and was wondering how many young dragline operators are out there. i cant find anyone my age that even knows what a dragline is even less how to operate one
     
  16. td25c

    td25c Senior Member

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    Never had any trouble with the pump or fuel system itself. Your question did spark my curiosity so I pulled a barrel out of my old pump this evening.Looks like the barrel/delivery valve on the bosch pump is sealed with an o-ring "red arrow" and a plastic square cut ring " green arrow" under the shims & flange.Also has a lip cut in the aluminum bore for the o-ring to set on.I would think a pump shop could fix it pretty easy with new rings unless the pump body is cracked or damaged somehow.I would like to see some pictures of your dozer and root rake setup.The 22b crane sounds cool,A classic crane for sure. Only dragline experience I have is using my old Insley truck crane with a 1/2 yard bucket.They come in hany at times. To post pictures check out this thread www.heavyequipmentforums.com/showthread.php?21903-How-to-add-pics-to-forum-posts
     

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  17. D6 Merv

    D6 Merv Senior Member

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    Very interesting TD25C.; had a reread of this thread; that's the Robert Bosch fuel pump.
    I have a old Mitsubishi truck with the DC9 motor. Its fuel pump is a Japanese Diesel kiki pump and is exactly the same appearance and everything, complete to the pumping element design; plunger stays behind in pump, and barrel lifts off. Even the O ring design is the same. And yes mine has leaked the same and is just a matter of replacing the o rings. But take particular note of where the position of the barrel is. the holes are slotted to allow for fine tuning of the pump when running on a test bench, so it needs to go back in exactly the same place.
    Any fuel pump gurus know if im right in my thoughts that a Japanese diesel kiki pump is just a Japanese made under licence version of the Robert bosch pump ???? Thanks merv :drinkup
     
  18. td25c

    td25c Senior Member

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    That's my understanding as well D6 Merv about the slotted holes in the plunger. I've heard of Diesel Kiki but don't know if there is a connection between two pump manufacturers ?
     
  19. hd16b

    hd16b Active Member

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    you are right d6 merv on the position of the barrels,I marked a line on mine but did not really matter because it was turned all one way and it did fix my leak,amazing how much it can leak. Also on a different note ,I am trying to sell a heavy duty root rake that fits an hd11 with a cframe,can see pictures of it on the ac forum under the classified section. Hope someone wants to buy it because don't want to sell for scrap or will trade for a rake that fits a w20c case loader
     
  20. td25c

    td25c Senior Member

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    Glad to hear you got the leak fixed hd16b:thumbsup