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Now I know why front wheels tilt, what about this?

Discussion in 'Motor Graders' started by traxs, Apr 9, 2007.

  1. traxs

    traxs Well-Known Member

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    Ummm...what's the point of that?
     

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  2. Deas Plant

    Deas Plant Senior Member

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    Why????????????

    Hi, Traxs.
    Welcome to this little corner of the world.

    Why do articulated grader frames articulate in the manner shown in your photo????????

    Will, " 'Cos they can", do for an answer??????? Hmmmmmm. I didn't think so. Jeez, some people are hard to please.

    Well, being able to articulate the frame in the manner shown enables the operator to position the drive's line of thrust directly behind the greatest load on the blade, helping to keep the grader travelling in the direction required and reducing slippage, both sideways and in terms of traction loss.

    Other uses for this sort of articulation are to enable keeping the front wheels on smoother ground by placing them on the previous grader pass and allowing the front wheels to be put up on a batter while keeping the drive down on flat ground.

    Now I'm so tired after all this typing that I'll have to take my weary old bones and and have a nanna nap. G'night, to you and Grader4me.

    And do you really know all the reasons why grader steer wheels tilt/lean? Maybe, if you haven't yet read it, you need to go back and read the posts on this thread:

    http://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=2462
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2007
  3. Grader4me

    Grader4me Senior Member

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    Articulating steering

    I agree with Deas, although it seems he was quite sleepy when replying:laugh Also good for wet ditching...keep the arse end up on the road and the front end in the ditch line. Also good for manuvering around tight places etc.

    Reminds me of a little story.....I remember one time when I was grading a road and due to the length of it we used two graders so that we could finish it in one day.
    I was lead taking the first cut and the second grader was coming behind making the second cut towards the center of the road.

    Looking in the mirror I noticed that he had the grader articulated with the rear full to left (towards center of the road) and I thought okay what is his purpose in this. I watched him for about another mile and still couldn't figure out:confused:

    So I stopped and went back and asked him as you know I person is never to old to learn something new. Now keep in mind that by having his grader articulated this way he was taking up a lot of the road making it hard for traffic to get by.

    His reply...By articulating my grader this way I'm getting a wider pass! So we will end up with less passes to finish the road.

    My reply...The blade is only 14 feet wide, so it doesn't matter which way you have you grader articulated! Straighten the dam thing out so that the traffic can go!

    He was a tad bit embarassed :pointhead
     
  4. Blademan

    Blademan Charter Member

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    As mentioned above , :notworthy there are many reasons and plenty of times articulation comes in handy . I've never had the chance to run a grader that didn't have it ( I think they were called straight frames ?? ) , but I would imagine it would be a very fustrating thing in a hurry . Especially when building roads for subdivisions or parking lots and space becomes a premium ( wierd angles , water valves , manholes , catchbasins , etc . ) .

    I worked for a outfit once where there was a young lad being trained . He was laying out material on a new subdivision road and things were getting quite busy for him as he was coming up to a intersection with valves , manholes , catchbasins etc , all the while trucks trying to squeeze by to dump their loads . Lots of action and a very hectic pace ( he was trying to impress with his speed :rolleyes: ) to say the least .
    Anyways , he had just made a pass and was fully articulated around a set of manholes , and then he started to back up while looking back over his right shoulder at the next truck coming up , and wasn't really paying any attention to his front tires . In that ten seconds that he had ' forgotten ' he was fully articulated , his front tires had mounted the sidewalk , knocked over a labourer ( who was dumping trucks and had also not paying enough attention :Banghead ) and ran him over !! :eek: Luckily , although heavily bruised and somewhat very embarrassed , the labourer didn't sustain any major injuries . It was a lesson to all of us that it only takes a few seconds and two people not paying enough attention to what was happening to have a potentially very serious accident .
     
  5. digger242j

    digger242j Administrator

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    Not to get off topic, but there's an example of where the backup alarm wouldn't even have been any use, as the laborer was not actually behind the machine.
     
  6. Blademan

    Blademan Charter Member

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    Well ....... I tend to think ,there is a danger zone around the machine , especially as they can articulate or crab around objects . In this accident , it was the result of the operator not really paying attention to as where his front wheels were going to be , as well as the labouer ( a very senior and seasoned individual , BTW ) not paying attention to what was happening as the machine was backing up . Had he looked up when he heard the backup alarm , he would of realized that the machine just wasn't simply backing up straight and could of avoided being knocked down and run over . Two small and avoidable errors combined to make this accident possible .

    Because of this incident , I now tell anyone on the crew , that once the backup alarm sounds , to have a quick check . I know it happens hundreds of times a day and can be really annoying , but it's the safest thing for us both . I do my best to always be attentive , and I expect the same from the ground personnel too . You just never know ...

    Uhhhhh , back to topic , lol ?
     
  7. Dwan Hall

    Dwan Hall Senior Member

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    I am hoping with my Grader crabed like that and a front blade on it I can clear a 18' to 20' path in 1 pass when plowing snow. ?? 13' blade and 9' plow.
     

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  8. traxs

    traxs Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for all the answers guys.:drinkup
     
  9. Grader4me

    Grader4me Senior Member

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    Lol...you nut:) You have been busy with your AW...Installed articulation...Did you do this before or after you painted?:laugh
     
  10. Dwan Hall

    Dwan Hall Senior Member

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    It does not articulat but has rear wheel stering.
    I did not install it but did have to repair it so it would work right.
    I am still not done with the cleanup and painting, because we had a record snow this winter and I was busy. (over 200")
    Now I have to repair what we broke last winter then back to the AW project.. Wireing will be next along with the interior work.
     
  11. Grader4me

    Grader4me Senior Member

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    Well I'll be...I never knew it had rear wheel steering. I have never operated a grader with that feature. Next time you have a chance post a picture of the rear wheels turned will you?
     
  12. telescooper

    telescooper Well-Known Member

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    Do you guys straighten out the machine, when backing up. I have problems backing up when the machine is fully articulated or close to it. I wouldn't call myself an expert grader operator by any means. I just know the basic fundamentals, But I love operating them.
     
  13. digger242j

    digger242j Administrator

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    I guess it's not so terribly off topic, becasue, to my way of thinking, the backup alarm is probably located somewhere behind the cab, and engine, and the guy got run over in front of the cab. He may never have heard the backup alarm. The point being, that because of the amount of articulation, there exists an area where you can get run over, that's not protected by the backup alarm. (And the fact that the visibility forward is not obstructed like it is to the rear, is a moot point if the operator is looking rearward.)

    The idea of "a danger zone around the machine" is a good one...
     
  14. Grader4me

    Grader4me Senior Member

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    Any grader that I have seen has the backup alarm on the very back of the machine. I never never back up with the grader articulated, especially working around other machinery/crews.

    My answer is above. You have problems backing up when fully articulated because it is much harder to control. Remember for what ever reason you have your grader articulated going forward, the forces will be opposite when backing up, making the machine very hard to control.

    Plowking and I discussed in a PM some safety tips that would be distintive or set apart from other types of equipment. This would be a good one.

    "Never back a grader up while it is articulated" Just my 02 cents
     
  15. Deas Plant

    Deas Plant Senior Member

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    Backing up 'bent'.

    Hi, Grader4me.
    Me being me, I have a different slant on this never reversing with the machine articulated business. You mostly drive forward steering with the front wheels, the LEADING wheels, and your rear wheels follow inside the turning circle of your steer wheels (Assuming your frame is straight.).

    So, why not leave the front wheels straight and steer with the articulation when reversing to give the same net result? After all, - in theory - you ought to be looking behind you when reversing anyway. And your - straight - front wheels should then follow inside the turning circle of your articulated rear end - which is now at the 'front'.


    I can tell you from past experience that steering with the articulation when going in reverse in soft ground will get you out of places that trying to steer with the front wheels while reversing in the same conditions will get you bogged. Not only that, but you can hear and feel the machine pulling harder when you steer with the front wheels in such conditions than it does if you steer with the articulation. And the whole machine steers better this way in reverse too.

    F'rinstance, I worked a Cat 140G in deep, soft sand using my methods for 4 hours without getting stuck. Another operator relieved me for lunch and was bogged in under 5 minutes trying to steer in reverse with the front wheels. And he went crook at me for 'setting him up'. I can tell you that that was like water off a duck's back.

    For mine, there are NO hard and fast rules for this sort of thing. Each operator needs to make his own decisions based on the particular circumstances at the time. I have commonly gone into situations with an articulated frame grader where I had to use the articulation to steer my way out of the particular place to avoid doing damage to something. I would not work the same way with a rigid frame grader. You use the machine you have at the time to the best advantage that you can.

    Having said all of the above, there is really no right or wrong in this. Like most operating. it is very largely up to the owner of the butt in the seat how the machine is handled. Bystanders ought not to be telling the operator how to do it. Better that they should get they butt up in the saddle and SHOW how to do it.

    Just my 0.02 (Australian which may not be worth as much as your 0.02 'cos our dollar is only about 0.78 cents U.S. at the moment.) (LOL.)

    Hmmmmmmm!!!!!!!! Feelin' a bit tired after all that typin'. Better have another nap.
     
  16. Grader4me

    Grader4me Senior Member

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    I hear you Deas, and you are right as everything has it's place. I should have been more clearer in my statement. Keep in mind that I work in an environment that while working the grader there are at times many trucks/employees working in the same conjested area. Backing up while in full articulation would be asking for trouble. Yes there are times that you have to use it in order to get out of a bad situation, but as a rule I always straighten my grader when backing up. I am looking at this as a safety precaution when working in close proximinty(sp) to other machines/workers. Thanks for your feedback, as you know your opinion is highly regarded by me.
     
  17. Blademan

    Blademan Charter Member

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    Practice and time and patience is all it takes . For doing certain jobs, say laying out material for a road in a new subdivision , I spend just as much time reversing as I do going forward . In many cases , I can't back out without articulating around water valves or manholes ... or TRUCKS .... lol . So I'm used to steering the back end with the articulation lever . It can get a bit wierd sometimes when you're all crabbed out and you've got the steering wheel turning this way and the back end doing the opposite , all the while picking up speed and gears going backwards , lol , but you get the hang of it after a while .
    Also , as Deas Plant mentioned , if I'm in really soft or deep mud ( not much sand around us Deas ) , if I get bogged down going forward , I can usually just throw it in reverse and using the articulation I can wither myself free . If I 'm REALLY bogged , I also use the blade to back paddle myself free ( also using the articulation ) . With this method you can usually get yourself out of most situations . And if you're really , really bogged down .... well , that's getting way more off topic then neccesary , lol .

    Digger242j :as Grader4Me mentioned , the back up alarms are located behind the machine , but it's loud enough to hear even 100' in front of the machine . Because our graders are usually working in areas with high densities of people and trucks and other equipment , they've got the beepers set to the loudest settings . That particular accident happened mostly because the guy on the ground got complacent and was probably thinking about something other then what was happening at the moment , and the grader operator was trying harder then he should have ( highballing ) and wasn't in full control of what was happening around him , ie. lack of experience . It really only took two small errors at total of ten seconds to turn ugly . Almost a blick of a eye really .
    Could this accident been avoided had the operator not articulated ? Probably . BUT , not articulating is not a option for this particular situation . You just gotta get used to doing it and getting comfortable with it .
     
  18. Dwan Hall

    Dwan Hall Senior Member

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    Here I took these just for you.
     

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  19. Grader4me

    Grader4me Senior Member

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    Well, I'll be dammed! To think I was poking fun at you in the previous post...Sorry Dwan. I really never knew that the old graders were rigged up like that. The old girl is looking really good!
     
  20. Grader4me

    Grader4me Senior Member

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    Now that you proved your grader can crap walk...Yes, you can make a wider pass if you angle your grader just enough so that you can get the full use of your moldboard. Take a look at the picture of your grader face on and the way that it is angled. Position your moldboard all the way to the right by using the blade slide & circle side shift so that it catches the snow coming off the front plow without spilling to the inside, creating a windrow between the front plow and moldboard. This would give you the max width that you are looking for.

    You probably wouldn't need to off set as much as your picture shows though. Be good for what you do parking lots etc. Little tricky plowing a road :)

    Picture of the front plow that you are going to use?
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2007