Non starting issue Takecuhi TB153FR

[suladas]

I have a 2006 Takeuchi TB153FR that i've owned for about a year and a half. Right since I owned it it wouldn't always start, but was consistent. Would always start after sitting for the night and was usually good for 3-5 starts before you'd have to leave it sit, sometimes as little as 1 hour and it would start. At one job it wouldn't start, tipped the cab forward tapped the starter started up. Assumed it was bad starter, replaced it worked fine for a bit (however since it was good for a few starts prior and I don't use the machine a lot it's hard to judge it). Then wouldn't start at a job first thing in morning, so took it to shop. They replaced the controller, worked good for about a month until it happened again. Left it overnight and fine again and been fine for about 3 months. But i'm always worried it's not going to start. When it won't start key cycles normally, but when I go to crank nothing. Last time it happened I swapped fuses around to see if no change.

Does anyone have any ideas? I've read there is some kind of harness you can plug together under the seat to by-pass some shutdowns? Since the starter and main electrical harness has been replaced I can't there being many other options? Hate going to a job and always having to leave it run, or only turn it off sitting a certain way incase it won't start and has to sit there for the night.

Other problem is the only dealer here and who did the work was terrible, so I want to fix it myself. Took them 3 weeks to replace it, and cost me $4,000 and ontop of that charging me $500 for a day rental of one of their machines :Banghead

 

[suladas]

Happened again today. Started fine a few times this morning, shut it down go for lunch and no start when I come back. It's pretty warm out today, seems to be related to when it happens.

I've been reading it could be related to coolant/oil sensor and there's a 2 plugs to plug together to bypass? I couldn't find where they are located?

 

[suladas]

Got the machine started by jumping the starter, there was power at ignition when trying to start but nothing coming to starter. Turned it off and after that it started with the key :Banghead

Then this morning started fine, left it running all day. After I was done tried to start it, nothing.

My question is, do I have a problem with the wire from the ignition to the starter, or do I have a problem with some kind of safety switch preventing it from starting and going directly to the starter bypassed it or something?

Really want to get it fixed, racking up a lot of idling hours on the machine because I don't want to turn it off at all during the day.

 

[nowing75]

So you don't have power at the small wire to the solenoid? If not you have a problem elsewhere. Might need to find wire diagram.

 

[suladas]

So you don't have power at the small wire to the solenoid? If not you have a problem elsewhere. Might need to find wire diagram.

No power to it no. But after jumping to it and getting it running it had power again, and was fine next day also.

 

[Delmer]

I'd run a backup starter jumper into the cab, so you can start it when you need to, and from the safety of the cab.

Then find a wiring diagram, and start testing at your leisure. Hook up a couple test leads to suspicious components and see how it works cold, and then see what's not working hot. Heat causing the problem seems to point to a weak coil in a solenoid or relay. But it could be a circuit board or switch too, beyond my pay grade. If you can find an automotive electrical expert who's willing to take a look at it, that would be much better option than the dealer.

 

[oceanobob]

Not too far from my shop is an automotive electrician...I watch the tools he uses and would like to report that on the workbench near the door he has so many lite bulbs with alligator clips, and a collection of plugs where he can insert a male female (like a short extension cord) with 'taps'. Many times [on intermittents] the person has left his shop with a couple test lights to help diagnose a problem and sometimes a bypass switch or control.
Besides complaining at the cost of the parts due to the {needless** complexity of cars/trucks (such as all the accessory controls on the steering wheel), he has commented many times on the need to precisely care for those wire harness plugs....apparently there are tools to help one remove each of the pins (m or f) and they can individually be repaired, he has resizing tools, cleaning tools, contact improvers, etc....I have learned not to treat the wire harness plugs like our usual 120v extension cords from his comments.
He can usually get replacement plugs from other than the dealer who typically only has the entire harness or harness assembly.

 

[KSSS]

I had a TB153, similar or same year as yours. I think it was a harness I cant remember unfortunately, took it to the dealer and they fixed it. However mine did the very same thing. I suggest contacting Taki directly. They are very helpful. I think this issue must be fairly common. They could likely troubleshoot it over the phone. I have a 2012 TB153 I bought new with 1800 hours on it now and I have not a moments issue with it.

 

[suladas]

I'm still trying to track this problem down as i'm not using the machine and got the put in inside a buddies shop to work on. I called Takeuchi they didn't specify anything specific it could be just gave me a few leads to try. One thing I haven't been able to find on any diagram is the location of the safety switch? Also the machine will start with the arm up or down doesn't matter so it was bypassed at one point, is there a specific place that is most common to do that? I'm fine with it the way it is as i'm the only operator, but thinking it could possibly be related to my issue

It's been awhile since I worked on this issue but if I remember right I traced it that the power with the key in the run position when it didn't want to start I would get power to this little pigtail type inline fuse connector (it was a faint yellow color, two of them close by 2 wires in 2 out I believe) but from there something stopped it from making it to the starter. They mentioned a wire goes to the alternator so the machine cannot be cranked if running, I will check wire but alternator must be fine, it cranks good in cold weather and never went dead on me.

Honestly they weren't a lot of help, when I mentioned it was a common problem he quickly dismissed it. Of course because he was trying to help I wasn't going to be rude. But when I bought the machine at auction there was another one exactly the same from the same owner with exactly the same issue so it has to be pretty common...

 

[007]

Hello Suladas,
I am not familiar with your particular machine but a very very long time ago in my career i was a qualified auto electrician.
One question, when it is not starting have you confirmed with a meter or bulb there is no power at the small wire on the solenoid on the starter.
I assume there is no clicking noise coming from the starter.
I assume you have power coming from the start key in the start position.
Most starters have not changed much over the years and typically have two sets of wingdings in the solenoid.
One is a series and one parallel, and long story short because of the series winding the solenoid has an inrush current in the order of 80amps for a split second.
So typically there is a small starter relay to take this load of the wiring. (On more modern Machines and cars)
So from the starter key the start circuit will wander all around through all of the safety inhibit switches and finally get to pull in the start relay which then feeds power to the solenoid.
A lot of older equipment did not have inhibits and no start relays.
So if no power at the solenoid you have a faulty inhibit switch or open circuit in the loom or faulty start relay or wiring at the relay.
I am very surprised that some one mentioned it has an interlock with the alternator as this is rarely done.
You must not brush that off like you did because if it is in the circuit it makes no difference that the alternator is still charging.
Typically if they do that they use star point of the stater and 6v relay or 12v on the regulator circuit, long story short if that circuit is there there is another relay in the system that the start circuit goes through.
Once again loose wire or dirty contacts in that alternator inhibit relay will produce same results you are experiencing.
If you feed me with accurate info i will try to help you work through this if you like.
Any pictures of things you think might be sus and i might be able to second guess whats happening.
Personally you have more patience than me, i would have run a new wire ages ago.
Cheers

 

[diga]

Hi there from OZ, I to had the same problem with my (2012 TB 138fr) Taky and I ended replacing the ignition switch from memory, we also ran a second start/switch wire from the solenoid and put a start button on it in case the same thing happened again.

 

[suladas]

My bad for not returning to this thread, didn't use the machine until last week and of course this problem is still alive and frustrating me beyond belief. First day starts 4-5 times fine. When I get home I go to unload machine, nothing, I tip cab forward jump to starter, still nothing, come back a few hours later and it's fine again. Next morning nothing, tip cab forward starts fine jumping starter leave it running all day because I have no idea if it'll start. Sure enough once i'm done with it I try to restart and nothing.

Unless i'm missing something when i'm jumping the main power wire to the starter from the battery to the starter solenoid it is bypassing the entire starter stuff, and the only things it could be is

-Starter itself just replaced last year did nothing for issue
-Bad battery I pulled it and had it tested this weekend, it's working perfectly
-Disconnected main ground and clean it off, looked fine
-Could be grounding issue with starter itself, not sure how to verify without pulling starter as it's underneath it?
-Bad power wire to starter not giving starter enough power, was thinking of testing this if it happens again, I could run a separate jumper from the battery to see if it's the issue?

Could it possibly be anything else? I ran a jumper from the starter solenoid to inside the cab to fix that issue so I don't have to tip the cab forward. When it wouldn't start jumping to starter, when turning key to crank the starter would click, or at least something under there was clicking.

 

[Delmer]

when i'm jumping the main power wire to the starter from the battery to the starter solenoid it is bypassing the entire starter stuff...


... I ran a jumper from the starter solenoid to inside the cab to fix that issue so I don't have to tip the cab forward. When it wouldn't start jumping to starter, when turning key to crank the starter would click, or at least something under there was clicking.

Rather than try to explain electrical theory from scratch, I'd run a test lead from the big terminal on the starter (assuming you have a typical solenoid mounted on the starter, this is the terminal on the starter that has the big cable going to the solenoid) IF that has no power when it doesn't start but clicks, then put a test light on the big cable going to the solenoid and see if it has 12V WHEN the "starter" clicks.

If you've been "jumping the starter" by shorting the big terminals on the solenoid, and it still doesn't start, then check if 12V is present WHILE you're shorting those terminals. It's not enough that the battery cable shows 12V and THEN the solenoid clicks, or you jump the starter and nothing happens. You need to find out if there is 12V to the starter itself. 12V at the solenoid with no load does not mean there is 12V present with the solenoid closed.

It sounds like you have a loose connection somewhere, those electrical tests will narrow down where to look next. Japanese machines apparently put relays in the battery ground cable occasionally too, that could be a loose connection that would screw you up with diagnosing.

 

[suladas]

Well I have a new non starting issue. A while ago a few mornings I had issues getting the machine to start, boosted it and starts instantly. So I replaced the battery, no change. Ending up replacing ground cable to battery and was ok for a day, I also grounded the battery directly to the machine, by-passing that shut off to make sure that wasn't causing any issues. Now this morning no start. It is power related as it cranks a bit but you can tell just doesn't have enough juice. Boosting makes virtually no difference. Positive terminal at battery getting very hot though. Ran power wire directly to starter, gives starter more juice but still no start (I didn't use a great wire just wanted to see if it made a difference).

My question is, by boosting to a standalone battery does that eliminate that it is a issue with the battery being grounded? Would running a proper heavy wire directly to the starter be a good test? Can't get much of a look at the wire as it's under so much stuff. What about another ground wire to somewhere else on the machine? I think it has to be purely a bad wire/connection as the other day I must have started/stopped the machine 20 times without a hickup, the first morning start is the only time it gives me any issues and the longer you crank the less power it has.

 

[seville009]

Disclaimer - I’m no mechanic, just a homeowner with equipment.

You mention in an older post about the safety switch being bypassed since you can run it with the arm up or down. May be worth it to find that switch just to make sure it was really bypassed and not defective and causing the intermittent problems.

I had a truck once that would have an intermittent no start issue. Turned out to be a bad battery cable. Replaced and no more issues. It doesn’t look like you replaced the positive cable due to it being hard to get to, but maybe try that.

Good luck

 

[007]

You need to measure what voltage you are maintaining at the starter in the morning when you are cranking.
Voltage directly at the body of the starter and the large Pos solenoid terminal.
If you made a short video on your phone of a quick walk around of the machine and when it was having trouble cranking and post it here would help a lot.
Cheers

 

[uffex]

Good day
Please see attached may help.
Kind regards
Uffex

 

[fast_st]

My question is, by boosting to a standalone battery does that eliminate that it is a issue with the battery being grounded? Would running a proper heavy wire directly to the starter be a good test? Can't get much of a look at the wire as it's under so much stuff. What about another ground wire to somewhere else on the machine? I think it has to be purely a bad wire/connection as the other day I must have started/stopped the machine 20 times without a hickup, the first morning start is the only time it gives me any issues and the longer you crank the less power it has.

You may want to pull the starter and have it checked, you could have a dragging brush. It could well be a dirty/loose ground or supply wire.

 

[uffex]

Good day Salads
I would suggest take nothing for granted the way to find the root cause is by illiminating one component at a time, guessing at what the issue cause the problem is far more likely to take much longer. Starting from one end and working towards the signal is by far the more professional approach, if your not sure ask for help. The starter motor is simple to take out of the picture you can even connect a test wire to the cabin light from the "S" terminal I know it can be tricky to get at the starter on small machines but if you take a little time you should be able to locate that cable where it easy to connect. Bad ground connections are often the cause taking the time to clean with a emery paper and make a solid connection takes away a possibility, this can effect the alternator which in turn can prevent starting. Intermittent faults are the worst to locate it takes some patience.
Kind regards
Uffex

 

[uffex]

Should have added Locate the safety relay connect a lamp to terminal "B" same as the activating cable to the starter.