New JD 710 owner needs help. No crowd (dipperstick) power

[Welder Dave]

I just came across this but I don't think lifting weights is the best way to test the hydraulics on a backhoe. I think a lot of capacities listed in brochures are based on optimal conditions and hydraulic calculations rather than actually testing on a machine. For instance front end loader capacity could be at the lift pins without the bucket on. Boom lift capacity on a backhoe could be with the stick all the way in which you'd rarely do. Of course if the stick is reached out you'd have way less lift capacity. Someone coming on a forum and bashing a particular machine or brand doesn't help anyone. They came here looking for help in fixing their machine that did run properly at some point not an opinion on the machine they own. Every manufacturer has had some less desirable machines but bad mouthing them doesn't help fix the problem. Not knowing how the hydraulic system on the machine is designed to work and then trying to offer advice on what's wrong doesn't help anyone either. I'm not a mechanic but do know that closed center hydraulics are much more complex than open center. My basic understanding is open center is full flow-no pressure and closed center is full pressure-no flow. Trouble shooting them is totally different other than something simple like a blown hyd. hose.

 

[GregsHD]

I thought the tests Jay performed was a good way to verify the pump is not the problem, it lifted close enough to the "specs" that the stick should have decent digging power. Not an accurate way to test, but it didn't cost anything to see if all hydraulic functions were weak!

I also agree that bashing or being a smart a$$ helps no one..

 

[workshoprat92]

I didn't really think i was bashing the machine. I would very much like to be proven wrong on my assement of this model that i have formed as a result of seriously looking at several of these machines. On paper this thing should be a monster and the size of the machine is very appeling to me for the application i would use it in. I have yet to find even one of them that could even muster up to the power of a case 580 or heck for that matter my old ford 4500. I seriously would love to be proven wrong and actually find and buy one that operates as the monster it should be. If the machine however just does not muster up then how is it bashing it when its just a plain fact?

 

[workshoprat92]

Something else you might want to think about and very well might be worth the cost of it. https://www.amazon.com/Tractor-Backhoe-HYDRAULICS-Technical-TMS153821/dp/B00SK9WYA2

Then you would have actuall factory information and it should have a troubleshooting guide. Would go a long way to follow the proper troubleshooting procedure and would eliminate a bunch of what ifs and speculation.

 

[workshoprat92]

That's exactly how they are designed to operate. Take a look at the controls, or service manual, or anything written about a closed center hydraulic system, when the function reaches the end of the stroke, or stalls, the engine DOES NOT bog down because the pump is unloaded, the pump cannot tell the difference between a stalled function and a closed valve, same pressure and same flow.

Delmar if thats the case then its likely that i have never run a machine with a closed center system and its very possible that the open center and closed center just have a very different feel to the operator in the way that they operate and have very different characteristics. I have got to wonder if jay here is also used to open center system and the way an open center system feels in operation and we are both mistaking what we percieve as a dficency as normal for that machine. I kind of really have to lean this way as i have looked at so many of them that i thought was deficent. I cant tell you how much money i have spent traveling the country to look a several of these machines only to wind up in severe disappointment.
To that point when i went to the auction in dallas they also had a 310 deere there that i ran for comparison sake. It to me felt just like the 710 and in my opinion was just as deficient as the 710.
Of course my opinion is just as much speculation as anyone else has put forth here. The one thing i am missing is the experience of actually purchasing a machine and getting out the manual and getting all the facts so as to make an informed diagnosis. I am quite certian with a good manual and some time i could figure it out. I just am not willing to take the gamble to buy a machine and then find out in the end that it just is not designed to perform the way i think it should. I have already spent enough money to get experience i have with these machines. Sometimes you just have to ask yourself. Your foots already in the trap so just how much more cheese do you want lol?

 

[Welder Dave]

Something else you might want to think about and very well might be worth the cost of it. https://www.amazon.com/Tractor-Backhoe-HYDRAULICS-Technical-TMS153821/dp/B00SK9WYA2

Then you would have actuall factory information and it should have a troubleshooting guide. Would go a long way to follow the proper troubleshooting procedure and would eliminate a bunch of what ifs and speculation.

This is all you should have posted in the first place not understanding that a JD has a totally different hydraulic system than a Case or a Ford.

This isn't bashing?
"and have yet to see a 710 prove me wrong is that the 710 is an under engineered pos dog and you are getting max out of the machine and the john deere performance numbers that are advertised is totally a joke and a complete lie and fabrication or just a pipe dream!!!!! "

 

[workshoprat92]

This is all you should have posted in the first place not understanding that a JD has a totally different hydraulic system than a Case or a Ford.

Well i would recomend that no matter what type of system it has. I pretty well all along thought i kind of stated that you need all the diagnostics information like pressure tests and where. The manual will give you a clearer picture of where to get that data and what to do with it once you have it. Dosent matter what type of system you have every manufacturer is gona make it a bit diferent and they all will have their own little idiosyncrasies.

 

[Welder Dave]

I think you would be better off reading some service manuals and understanding how a specific machine operates instead of offering advice (ad nauseam) on a machine you're NOT familiar with.

 

[workshoprat92]

This is all you should have posted in the first place not understanding that a JD has a totally different hydraulic system than a Case or a Ford.

This isn't bashing?
"and have yet to see a 710 prove me wrong is that the 710 is an under engineered pos dog and you are getting max out of the machine and the john deere performance numbers that are advertised is totally a joke and a complete lie and fabrication or just a pipe dream!!!!! "

Well since i have spent considerable amount of money to get first hand information and compare as many machines as i possibly could and have formed this opinion based on the fact that i have yet to find a ma hine that will prove me wrong then no i dont consider it bashing. I have spent much money and find it quite factual and i now give you this information for free at a great cost to me. I pretty well think i have earned my thoughts

 

[workshoprat92]

Ok what advice have i given ad nauseum other than gater data and get the facts? I have gone into some basic hydralic theory but thats not advice on a fix. In what maintenance manual have you ever seen a diagnostics procedure to lift concrete blocks and make an i think so estimation?

 

[workshoprat92]

I think you would be better off reading some service manuals and understanding how a specific machine operates instead of offering advice (ad nauseam) on a machine you're NOT familiar with.

 

[workshoprat92]

Really i find this statement pretty funny. Im not familiar with them? I took the intelligent aproach to the possible purchase of this model and i became familiar enough with then to know to keep my money safely in my bank account and not find myself in the position Jay here now finds himself. Yea guess that makes me the dummy. Really i think Delmar is the smartest on here and im gona follow his example!!!

Out!!

 

[Delmer]

That manual is a bargain at $40. It sounds like Jay has sent his pump off to be rebuilt, so if they are half as competent as their website seems, then he should get it back good as new. It will be interesting to see the results. The controls are all in the pump as far as I know. Maybe we'll get a back pressure reading if it doesn't have expected power?

Workshoprat is the only one here besides Jay who has ran a 710 so your advice is as good as any, if you tried several of them then that's more than Jay or I. This is a safe space and your feelings are just as valid as anyone else's

Lantraxco, Mobiletech and maybe a couple others had way more experience with these JD's. Too bad I scared Lantraxco off with that roundup thread, didn't mean to, sorry?

I thought most modern excavators used closed center systems. I don't have that experience to know how they feel compared to the JD system. I know that my 610 has enough power to bury the bucket in nearly anything and stall, and once it stalls the stick the boom is stalled too usually so you're sitting there with both levers back and the engine with no load and nothing happening... A little time with it and you can keep the pump operating in the middle of the curve, taking reasonable bites and keeping the bucket moving.

 

[workshoprat92]

That manual is a bargain at $40. It sounds like Jay has sent his pump off to be rebuilt, so if they are half as competent as their website seems, then he should get it back good as new. It will be interesting to see the results. The controls are all in the pump as far as I know. Maybe we'll get a back pressure reading if it doesn't have expected power?

Workshoprat is the only one here besides Jay who has ran a 710 so your advice is as good as any, if you tried several of them then that's more than Jay or I. This is a safe space and your feelings are just as valid as anyone else's

Lantraxco, Mobiletech and maybe a couple others had way more experience with these JD's. Too bad I scared Lantraxco off with that roundup thread, didn't mean to, sorry?

I thought most modern excavators used closed center systems. I don't have that experience to know how they feel compared to the JD system. I know that my 610 has enough power to bury the bucket in nearly anything and stall, and once it stalls the stick the boom is stalled too usually so you're sitting there with both levers back and the engine with no load and nothing happening... A little time with it and you can keep the pump operating in the middle of the curve, taking reasonable bites and keeping the bucket moving.

Ok i know i said out but i have a very hard time keeping my mouth shut lol. As far as the difference of operation from this machine to others something we also have to keep in mind is the machine weight. This machine is considerably heavier than say a 580 or my old ford. My old ford is so light its about impossible to stall the crowd because it will drag the machine into the hole instead. This may give the perception of extremely powerful when really its compartivly no better than a 710 for its given size just that a 710 and its weight you can hook to the ground where you can utilize its full power and actually cause funtion to stall. I could see where this could cause a perception issue.

 

[Tinkerer]

Just curious Workshoprat, did you buy or do you have the the John Deere technical manual that you posted a link to ???

 

[Tinkerer]

I have quite few older machines, an Allis Chalmers D45 grader, a 944 Traxcavator, an old W900 Kenworth dump truck, a DD 400 International semi, an ancient White 8 x 10 water truck, and numerous steam powered tractors.

Jay; would you consider posting some photos of those tractors in the Agricultural Forum ?
Sorry to go off topic !

 

[workshoprat92]

I just posted a link to it trying to be helpfull. I consider a manual a must for working on something this complex.

 

[Jay E.]

Jay; would you consider posting some photos of those tractors in the Agricultural Forum ?
Sorry to go off topic !

Ok, I'll try to gather up some. It is a marvel to me that any of them work, but yet they do. That is why having a new one that doesn't is such a puzzle to me.

 

[Tinkerer]

I just posted a link to it trying to be helpfull. I consider a manual a must for working on something this complex.

Nice of you to post that link workshoprat, but I am wondering why you spent so much time and money looking at those machines and never purchased the technical manual. Perhaps there is information in it that would enable you to figure out what the problem is with those 710's.

 

[workshoprat92]

I just did not see the need to persue it any farther and figured i was money ahead to just stay away from what appears to be a very problamatic machine.