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Mud

Discussion in 'General Industry Questions' started by trainwreck, Feb 22, 2008.

  1. trainwreck

    trainwreck Well-Known Member

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    i am on a job where we have about 40,000 yards of mud. it is coming out of a mud slide and we are trying to make about a 30 foot thick fill, but we can not even get on top of the mud with the lgp cats. right now most of it is a little bit thicker than water and some of it is like tar.

    how the hell do you deal with this stuff.
     
  2. Northart

    Northart Senior Member

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    How ?

    Would a dragline or crane with clamshell bucket work ?

    Cat 245 size Hydraulic excavator with clamshell ?

    Post some pics so we can see the dilemma ,
     
  3. Countryboy

    Countryboy Senior Member

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    With pictures...:D

    Are you allowed to blend in stabilizers or is that not an option? We blended bags of Quikrete in some swamp mud on our property to give a dozer access on the other side. We didn't want it rock hard so we didn't use too many bags but it definately made it solid enough for the dozer. Before the Quikrete, I couldn't even stand there without sinking to my waist.

    By the way, we had tried lime....and lots of it. That swamp mud swallowed it whole. :rolleyes:
     
  4. pushcat

    pushcat Well-Known Member

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    Fly ash works on the same principal as quikrete and it's a lot cheaper. You could probably get a train load at a power plant fairly easily too.
     
  5. Dirtman2007

    Dirtman2007 Senior Member

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    dealing with mud sucks, We dredge out a lot of ponds and there has never been a job where we had plenty or room to get rid of the crap. One job we had a 3 acre feild to dump out all the 250 loads of mud, but the mud was so wet that when it came out of the truck it spread out in about a 30' circle. It did not take long to fill up the field!

    In your case Here is a sloution that may work for you. In the area that is going to be filled dig out a long a shallow area and pile the dirt up on the sides to act as a dam. You may have to do this several sections according to how much material you have. Once you have a pool like area finished have the dozers start pushing the mud down to the area that has been dug out. Then have an excavator sitting on top of the dam to pile the mud up inside of the area that was dug out. This will act as a large holding tank to hold all the mud. Once it is full, dig another one and repeat the process.

    I've done this many time before and it seems to work good for me. If you have any other questions just give me a shout.

    And the important thing to remember is not to drive out onto the areas filled for a very long time. It may look hard on top, but 3' down its still liquid, and that can ruin yer day!! I know...
     
  6. MKTEF

    MKTEF Senior Member

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    I was on a job where we loaded clay, it was nearly hard when loaded, but after som driving it was like liquid.:mad:
    Exc had to move for each load he did, or else he would sink down in it.:eek:

    We transported it with adt's with tailgates. A35's.(top and bottom hinged)
    Filling was done in a pond.(big one)
    This clay just poured out like water when u raised the dump.

    I know that today in the same area they use lgp's and mix this stuff with sand/other masses and makes a filling out of it.(2 dozers mixing it)

    In your case i beliewe it would be difficult to mix, as it is floating already.:rolleyes:
    Load it up with exc/wheelloader/trackedloader in adt's/trucks with tight tailgates and make a pond that will dry out in some time...(as dirtman suggests)
    Make a fence around with warnings...(in theese safety times):)
     
  7. surfer-joe

    surfer-joe Senior Member

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    Unless you can dike it up as has been suggested, than your other choice is to blend it with dry material or, as has also been mentioned, commercial binders. This may not be an economical solution for you, but it's up to the owner to decide, if he really needs to dispose of the mud.
     
  8. LDK

    LDK Well-Known Member

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    If the area is not going to be built on and the ground under the mud is good I have used the following method on several ocassions and it has worked fine.
    I had excavators dig a deep slot, a machine width from the edge the mud, I then use a dozer or an excavator to fill the slot to within about a meter of the surface. When the first slot is full I move closer to the mud and dig another wide trench as deep as possible but leaving a wall of the good material between it and the trench I have just filled with the mud, the good dirt from this trench is cast on top of the mud that is laying in the first slot and I repeat this cycle till I am done.
    The last time I did this the layer of good dirt that covered the mud was 2 to 3 meters thick and I was running around on it with a D9R with out any problems.
    We did not have the space to spread the mud and let it dry and the method I used was cheaper than hauling it to a tip, even though it was close by. It is not the answer to every situation but it works for some.
     
  9. mikef87

    mikef87 Senior Member

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    lime will stiffen it up, but you'll need a whole lot of it. I've used it before it dries it up pretty good.
     
  10. Dozerboy

    Dozerboy Senior Member

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    Fly Ash is where I would start there are other options. Is it clay or what, and if you dump it in a pile will the water run off of it?
     
  11. Turbo21835

    Turbo21835 Senior Member

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    Having nice sunny days and warm temps would help out a lot, but in your area im sure thats something you have a shortage of. Ive worked around stabilization projects. We have use lime kiln dust, quick lime, cement, and flyash. All will work, but all will be a little different. They all do the same thing. They get wet, and crystilize in the soil as it drys. Most people will tell you that need stabilizing, really, you need less than 4% of any of these products to achieve results, that would be considered modification.

    This being said, you are going to need a lot of any product. If I remember correctly, 25 tons would cover an area about the size of a football field, one foot thick. Its pretty awesome, you can take a material that you cannot walk on, and turn it into a building pad.
     
  12. trainwreck

    trainwreck Well-Known Member

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    today i got back in time to post a few pic of what i a working with. so here it is... oh and the stuck pics i was not even in the machine when the mud slide hit it
     

    Attached Files:

  13. RollOver Pete

    RollOver Pete Senior Member

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    I almost used a line similar to that...............j/k
    Had it not been for all of the eyes locked in on me as I dug myself half way to China, I might have gotten away with it.



    :cool:
     

    Attached Files:

  14. Northart

    Northart Senior Member

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    Saturation or Liquification ?

    Hello Trainwreck,

    Obviously your soils are past the Saturation point and now are in the Liquification stage. Mudslides from rain , snow laden excess's.

    From your picture looks like you have a limited dump site, for disposal. Just push it off somewhere else, out of the way.

    To do that, in the time constraints, I'd follow what others have suggested, is to import, admixtures to solidify the material, to be able, to move the waste material into a permanent place .

    Anything, even sawdust,wood chips,etc. to mix it up. Whatever is available locally.

    Otherwise just wait 6 weeks or longer, for it to dry out by itself.
     
  15. John C.

    John C. Senior Member

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    I don't know all the restictions Trainwreck is under with the mud but this is the Pacific Northwest. We have lots of greenies that have bored their way into the government and bureaucracy. I doubt that fillers and additives can be used in any form on that slide.

    The only way around the situation I have seen used in recent years in this area is dumping hog fuel on top to make a road and then bailing the sides into artics. The material is then stock piled out of the way until dry enough to handle.

    At any rate I feel your pain, but also see lots of money coming your way. The environmentals have big mouths and dumb ideas but are real thin on solutions and real free with someone elses money.
     
  16. BIGDAN315

    BIGDAN315 Well-Known Member

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    Ummm Hog feul ????
     
  17. Turbo21835

    Turbo21835 Senior Member

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    Basicly bark, sawdust, and woodchips. Common name for the left over products at sawmills, and paper mills. They call it hog fuel. Not sure on why on the hog part, but the fuel part is because a lot of paper mills have their own power generation set up based off of buring these left over materials.

    The thing i dont understand is it was stated that enviro crowd has a problem with these products, yet at some point in time they came from the ground. Flyash, ash left over from burning coal. Coal came from the ground, not good to put back in the ground? Yet it is used in fertilizers. Lime and cement, Come from the ground in the form of limestone. Then it is ground up and heated and blended with a few other materials to make both products. How is that bad to put back in the ground? Hell ground up limestone, yet again, is used in agriculture extensively. :beatsme
     
  18. trainwreck

    trainwreck Well-Known Member

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    thank you for all your info. we got a long boom zx 200 today so we can sit on hard ground or large wood pads and move the mud/water mess where it needs to be. when this area gets full we will move to the next place,or if this are get so wet that we can do nothing we will move sooner and then come back after some of the water is gone. they have changed the haul away number no to 300,000-400,000 yards of mud that will be put in 4-6 dump sites.

    i would post more pics on here but after a 12-14 hours day i have a hard time doing anything so if you want to see the pics you have to go to our web site.


    http://www.budandraven.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=2496
     
  19. xcavate

    xcavate Well-Known Member

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    I have a jobsite that is currently very muddy. The weird weather freeze thaw and alot of rain snow have made it a mess. The area is about 250 by 100. It just about the top 6" thats muddy just a pain in the butt. If I were to spread some cement around what would be the procedure application rate. Do I have to mix it or just spread it out top. Material is a silty sand.
     
  20. John C.

    John C. Senior Member

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    In the old saw mills the machine that ground up the wood waste was called a hog. Chunks and broken slabs could not be fed into the boiler plants until they were ground down. Once ground they went into a fuel house or shed and flight conveyors fed the chips into the boiler plants from there.

    Now days in many places we can't burn brush anymore because of the greenies so they use tub grinders to reduce the clearing waste before being able to build on the property. Spread that stuff on top of the mud and you can drive regular highway trucks on it that wouldn't move before.

    As to the fly ash and cement issue, what happened here was a copper smelter owned by Asarco had a slag disposal problem. They used to give it away as road ballast all over the place. Years later they found out the stuff had a lot of arsenic in it and the greenies made a huge stink over it, probably rightly so. Since it is pretty wet up here once in while, the stuff is thought to leach out into the water supply. Dumping any kind of chemical into the soil now takes a blessing from hundreds of government officials and lots of time and money. They can't prove hog fuel hurts anything so for now its OK.