Motor scraper or pull scraper for pond build

[CDUB]

If you are going to work by yourself then a paddle wagon may be the best choice. If you have traction they will load themselves. I have limited experience with pull scrapers but they do seem limited in their ability to self load very hard material.
I prefer the hoe/ truck method for reasons I stated before, you can move almost anything anywhere. I bought my ADTs in the same situation as you, I had 30,000 yds to move, a hoe, and a dozer. I thought about scrapers but the ADTs gave me versatility in what I bid in the future. I do have to get pretty skinny to get a true dirt job, but can make it back on jobs suited to my fleet. You do need truck drivers, self loading would make a long job.

I don't think anyone is trying to tell you what to do, just pointing out some of the unknowns that affect your decision. Its kind of like someone wanting you to give a quote on a pond over the phone without seeing the site, I just think of all the negatives.

 

[clansing1]

Pond Building

Crawler w/ hyd. converted pull type scaper (D8 w/ Cat 80) - Very effective in short distances. 1,000 ft. haul is at the outer limits of range. Cost to operate is higher because of steel undercarriage cost and you must have a good sized dozer (200+ HP and big bowl 18 + CY). With a good set of pads, the crawler can move dirt in most soil conditions unless you run into high moisture conents and water tables. Skill level need is above average to average. Works well on inclines. Difficult to rent the pull scraper, might have to purchase and then sell when completed. Plenty on the market and it is a buyers market.

Self Loading Scraper with open bowl - Needs dry conditions compared to crawler scraper. Less operating cost than crawler scraper. Depending on soil conditions, might need pusher crawler to help load. Sort of a dying breed as has been replaced by excavator and haul trucks.

Self Loading Elevating Scraper - Rubber tired, with chain loader and underloader. Can cycle quickly but with less capacity (11 cubic yards). Pulverizes soil and can compact with tires to get very good compaction. Can self load with out pusher. Must be skilled operated on inclines or it will end up as a side dumper. Difficult to build pond with because of running on the edge of slope. Works well in combination with crawler and pull scraper. Can buy inexpensively. Needs dry to medium moisture contents for tires to load.

Ag Tractor and Pull Type Scraper
Ag. tractor can be rubber tire or rubber tracked. Rubber track have higher operating cost than rubber tires but has more traction. Need dry conditions, sandy soils, topsoil, or dry/silty clay. Most ag tractors are not designed to operate as scraper haulers and were design to pull ag equipment at higher speeds. The scraper special tractors have been pulling scrapers and have been worked hard.

Excavator and Haul Trucks
Need experience operator on track hoe. Less experience need for ADT's. Need dozer to level and grade. High initial cost because you need larger excavator, at least 2 ADT's and dozer, but you can move a lot of dirt. Also the excavator can install overflow culvert which most ponds/dams have. The excavator is an efficent loader and can mix soils with different soil contents and has the best selection and control of loading material.

 

[robin yates uk]

no need for a dozer

why use a dozer when you have a big excavator ? Any competant excavator driver can do all the finishing needed.

 

[clansing1]

If you are building the pond in lifts you will need the dozer to level the piles as you build.

I agree a good excavator operator can finish grade.

 

[robin yates uk]

I am from the UK, now retired and living in SE Asia. The terminology used on the forum is (excuse the expression,) is foreign to me.If this job was mine the excavator would dig to the required levels sitting on the top,,no need for lifts or piles. No need to go into the excavation at all.In the UK the only place you will see a dozer or motor scraper is on a new build motorway or similar. Most work is done now using the tracked excavator and articulated dump trucks like the Volvo

 

[fastline]

I really appreciate the continued thoughts on the the excavation. I am getting pushed back on the time line so probably still have a 2mo before I have to move on this. Yep, do have the 225 excavator to use. Not the biggest or fastest but paid for... I think the bucket (42") is about 1.2yd IIRC. As said, I might be flying solo for some of this but the decisions made are purely based on costs and time. However, to save 50% and burn a few extra days, that is a no brainer. I think from where we started this thread, we have changed to pond cut from not one, but two smaller ponds so actual haul distance will be shorter but 500 ft is still pretty realistic. I am still trying to calculate cyclic rates I think. As I might have mentioned, soil is sandy loam soil with more clay loam in some areas but certainly not 100* sticky clay. It should dig pretty easy. I am estimating 3 buckets/min or close to 216yd/hr if I am on my game. I would guess that is pushing it though. Maybe back that off to 175. SO... That becomes quite truck dependent or we are wasting time/fuel.

Looking at a smaller self loading or "paddle" scraper, I think you would be very hard pressed to touch that actual "load" rate per hr including haul. I am estimating a 5min min cycle for 500ft for an 11-13yd machine. that is in the 140-160yd/hr range but is moved and done other than some minor shaping. Great thing is a one man band on this one if it works...

For fuel, I usually go back to my hard math which I calculate the engine HP operating at 35% eff. For the 225 that works out to 140HP / .35 X746 x 3.412(btu) / 140,000 (btu/gal). That works out to a balls out, never give up fuel rate of 7 gal/hr. Probably closer to 5-6 gal/hr. I really have no idea on the scraper but probably much more. Maybe 15gal/hr.

Looking at the dump truck fuel rates, it might be more of a wash of actual fuel used here or even the scraper being a better deal. Unless I can pull a jack from my hat, any ATDs are probably out but standard DTs can certainly work on this deal but with lower load ability. As already noted, 1 truck would not cut it if we wish to get done in by christmas 2012. hmmmm..... Still thinking on this. Maybe with the 500ft deal, that would move more in favor of a loader? That is at least cycle independent of the hoe and reduced at least one operating machine. the loader can also do some grade work too. Problem is I don't have one sitting around and I think at least a 950 would be needed to do much good here.

 

[robin yates uk]

your 225 will carry a bigger bucket than 42 inch, rent a proper (we call a muck shifting bucket in the UK )big bucket

 

[fastline]

How big are you thinking? 60"? I was thinking of adding some side biters to the bucket that could probably add about .3-.4yds to the bucket capacity when heaping but I just don't have any other buckets to throw at it and they are not exactly easy to find..

 

[robin yates uk]

60 inch is exactly what I was thinking.Have you tried renting a bigger bucket?