Motor scraper or pull scraper for pond build

[fastline]

Need to move about 25K yards about 1000ft. The big question is if a motor grader can actually haul on any reasonable incline or if we need to solely be looking at a pull scraper with pull tractor? Approx area is 1-1.5acres and 10-12ft deep. We can ramp the ends and will finish shape with an excavator. Soils is loam soil, no rock. I have no seat time on a scraper but vids don't look promising on motor scrapers. They REALLY need the rear wheels driven to be any good IMO but one can do the job, that seems an easier purchase for us.

 

[Greg]

This is the kind of work I specialize in. Would go in with my D8K's pulling Cat No. 80 Pans. A short hop of 1,000 feet makes this set up very cost effective. If the going got a bit tough would put D7 behind to push while loading. Also need a dozer to spread the material as it is placed by scrapers. I don't understand how you think a "motor grader" is going to do anything on this job. Grader is great for finish work and placing aggregate but nothing else. For finish shaping I would use a small dozer with six way blade.

 

[grandpa]

Greg, ima thinkn he meant to say "motor scraper" instead of grader.

 

[wnydirtguy]

TS14 can be picked up for a low price. they can move a lot of dirt fast and cheap. It would work get in that soil. After the job you will have it for other work. A plus side to the terexs is they are easy to work on and parts are easy to come by. just my 2cents on it.

 

[stumpjumper83]

Yeah a ts-14 is a good choice, I'd a well maintained "b-d" model the g's are electrical nightmares, or at least the ones i was around were. If your going with a wheel scraper, better figure on having a decent sized dozer handy, both for loading and if you bogg one. I'd rent the largest 6 way dozer I could find, large d-6 or deere 850 w/ rippers that way you can finish with it and push um, and rip if you need to.

From experience, 2,000yds per day isn't outa line for that type of work.

 

[Greg]

In engineering school we learned to take people at their word gramps. Granted what was said didn't make much sense.

Some places it can get pretty wet at 10.0 to 12.0 feet from ground water. If it rains while the job is in progress you are royally screwed too because when doing pond like that there is no place for the water to go. You will more than likely need a push cat before this one is done if using rubber tire machine.

Job like this I will stick with Cat and pan.

 

[mitch504]

Some places it can get pretty wet at 10.0 to 12.0 feet from ground water.

Some places around here, you can get 9.0 to 11.0 feet of water at 10.0 to 12.0 feet from ground water.

 

[grandpa]

Some places around here, you can get 9.0 to 11.0 feet of water at 10.0 to 12.0 feet from ground water.

Just exactly what did you just say..."? I never went to engineering skool. What'd he just say Greg?

 

[Greg]

Got me on that one gramps. Must be more of that southern English we don't always understand in the chat room.

 

[mitch504]

Some places it can get pretty wet at 10.0 to 12.0 feet from ground water.

Some places around here, you can get 9.0 to 11.0 feet of water at 10.0 to 12.0 feet from ground water.

I simply replaced greg's "pretty wet" with 9-11 feet of water, saying that in places here, rather than hitting water 10-12 feet down, you hit water a foot down, and it fills as fast as you dig.

Around here, you don't dig ponds w/ pans, you use a trackhoe and a big pump.

 

[Greg]

After that I will say that no kind of scraper is going to work unless somebody comes up with a way to make one float which is the last time I checked against the laws of physics.

You are right. Trackhoe, big pump and some kind of off road hauler.

 

[fastline]

The question at hand here is if the motor scraper would even get enough traction and enough power to climb out of a pond dig? Or does this push a guy more towards a pull pan and tractor? I like the integrated style of the motor scraper but heard a LOT of stories about them not getting the job done. I just don't want to waste my time/money here. Are there no motor graders with the rear wheels driven? Seems that would be a huge improvement.

Upon closer review of the Terex machines, it seems they are push/pull machines. I am not sure which are and which aren't but I know the old CAT 613s and such are not.

 

[CDUB]

A motor scraper should climb out of the hole just fine depending on how steep the slope is, but they are helpless in the mud. The point Greg is trying to make (in his down his nose engineering manner) (no offense Greg, had a bad time with engineers this month) is that it is just as important to know wether there is groundwater present as it is to know about rock. It affects your choice of equipment greatly. In good conditions a scraper is way more effecient, but with an excavator and rough trucks you can move just about anything.

 

[fastline]

We have test holes in the area. Water table will be between 20-25ft. We will be digging to about 12ft at the most. I would expect moist soil due to the soil type but certainly not filling up the hole.

I had another dirt hog we know bring up a point that the paddle scrapers do a good job of dragging the soil up with the paddles but the pull pans require brute force to push all the dirt up. The rear wheel drive machines sure look appealing but also look like a maintenance nightmare. I guess if an old CAT motor scraper will do the job, that would be great news!

 

[robin yates uk]

if it was my job I would use a big excavator and some Volvo articulated dump trucks. That way everyone is at ground level so no worries about water in the hole

 

[oldtrucks1946]

Gentlemen, Looks confusing, so just could not resist. Just wanted to add some considerations to your original question about building a pond, the first answer you recieved is probably the best one. There does not apprear to be a lot a familiarity on your part with moving dirt. Motor scrapers are great when you have dry solid ground, no ground water, no rain clouds and a longer distance to haul, this is always been good method because your not handling the dirt twice, but to be effective you will need a push cat, twin engine or not. Taking the previous comments into consideration, does not matter how steep the hole or pond is, you can never cut steeper than the machine can get out of, any these machines are powerful and are designed to haul dirt up hill and down hill providing it is dry. If you want super steep sides after, then clean it out with a track hoe, and load that in the scraper, simple. If you have never ran a motor scraper and you attempt this task and it starts raining you will regret both choices the running the motor scraper and the rain. Rubber tired machines are NOT good in wet or rainy ground. When you say "we" are you attempting to do this soley on your own, or do you have helpers?? If you are totally on your own, and you want to do this by yourself with your own money, then a Cat and scraper, or take up the fellows offer about D8's and the 80 pans. This has been a tried and proven method since the 1930's-40's, our counrty was built with cat's and scrapers and motor scapers, you'll be a lot happier if it rained on your project. That is why pratically every cable scraper has been saved and coverted to hydraulics, Model 80 pans were last made in about 1954 and they are still working. If for some reason it all came to an end due to unforseen circiumstances, like huge water, or rocks then you can always use a hoe and doze it away after or loads trucks. Nothing wrong with Hoes and trucks, they are big production with lots of folks busy and you will still need a dozer for your project, these are best for severve conditions, or limitations such as, small limiting areas, slopes, trees, mud, rocks, lakes, narrow road building, communities, loading hauling for great distances. Same goes for also buying a hoe, you should know something about them, including running one, a Steel Tracked (Cat and Scraper for short hauls) in some folks eyes maybe slower but it is pretty forgiving, fool proof and very effective, and if you choose you could do this whole project all on your own. Good Luck with the pond Cheers!

 

[fastline]

To answer your question, you are not talking to a rookie dirt mover BUT, as I mentioned before, I have no seat time in a scraper. Does that mean I can't get the job done? I don't think so. I guess I am here to get a feel for their limitations. My experience is commercial golf coarse, municipal water systems and drainage, bridges, etc. I am just not a specialist in moving mountains which seems to be what dirt hog specialists do.

The hoe will certainly be used for final shaping, that is a given. The main issue is my "help" will be limited. Mostly done myself in which a scraper can be a one man show. Once the bulk of the material is moved, I can get help while I run the hoe and can probably get a dozer (you call a cat?) out there to help shape.

From what I gather though, a motor scraper or pull pan either one would require a ripper?

Regarding wet ground, you are preaching to the choir on that one. I have dug ponds before but smaller. D3 and 950 loader did those but different situation.

 

[oldtrucks1946]

OK, Sorry, was not trying to offend anyone, that is why I do not answer chat pages. I was only trying to point out all the facts to form a basis for the forum response from experience so anyone could understand, whether they agreed or not. I have already pointed out the limitations, so it is up to you.

No, you do not need a ripper unless it is very hard or rocks, srcapers load better in firmer conditions, you will drop down the center cutting edge or sometimes called a frost bit to assist loading, they do not load wet dirt, soft stuff and or sand very well.
Also, any scraper action needs traction, ripping losens the soil and will not delivery max traction, doent mean you can't get the job done, as you put it.

Not to worry, I won't offend anyone else, only trying to help from experience and by owning a few of the machines, and operating, cable operated pull scrapers, cable operated motor scapers, hydraulic scrapers, twin engine scrapers, from 10 yards to 50 yards, from D6's to D9's pulling pans, motor scrapers, Letourneau Super C with a 250 cummins, Allis Chalmers, Caterpillar DW20 and DW21's, 627's, 631's, 641's, 630's, 657, Euclids,Terex, TS14, TS18, TS24, so last Forum chat here!

 

[fastline]

I was not trying to **** back at anyone, only trying to cover what I thought I did I guess. I don't think I explain myself very well though most of the time. Hard to get what is in my head into this keyboard.


Thanks for the reply and opinions.

 

[stinkycat]

OK, Sorry, was not trying to offend anyone, that is why I do not answer chat pages. I was only trying to point out all the facts to form a basis for the forum response from experience so anyone could understand, whether they agreed or not. I have already pointed out the limitations, so it is up to you.

No, you do not need a ripper unless it is very hard or rocks, srcapers load better in firmer conditions, you will drop down the center cutting edge or sometimes called a frost bit to assist loading, they do not load wet dirt, soft stuff and or sand very well.
Also, any scraper action needs traction, ripping losens the soil and will not delivery max traction, doent mean you can't get the job done, as you put it.

Not to worry, I won't offend anyone else, only trying to help from experience and by owning a few of the machines, and operating, cable operated pull scrapers, cable operated motor scapers, hydraulic scrapers, twin engine scrapers, from 10 yards to 50 yards, from D6's to D9's pulling pans, motor scrapers, Letourneau Super C with a 250 cummins, Allis Chalmers, Caterpillar DW20 and DW21's, 627's, 631's, 641's, 630's, 657, Euclids,Terex, TS14, TS18, TS24, so last Forum chat here!

Oldtrucks1946 stay around we need some of the old timers to chat with on this forum you go back along ways and it would be a shame to lose your knowledge and input