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Like some advice on estimates for cylinder rebuild

Diesel40B

Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2017
Messages
24
Location
Harpers Ferry WV
Recently had a hydraulic line on my MF 40b backhoe (eary 80's) start leaking. Since I lost a significant amount of hydraulic fluid, I thought it was a good time to remove the MF 34A Loader Lift Cylinders and have them rebuilt as well as one of the outriggers. This is the first time I've ever had cylinders rebuilt. I called a hydraulic / cylinder shop in Hagerstown, MD and I was told that if everything was good it usually takes an hour of labor ($85) and the parts (seals) usually run $30-$40 for each cylinder. He told me that if I wanted to get the exact price, I'd need to bring them in and they could estimate it better. So, I thought best case probably $400, but possibly $600 if its harder to break down.

So weeks later, I removed the cylinders and took them into the shop. He said I'd need to leave them and they'd call me with an estimate. So, I get the call today and he tells me the estimate is $1532. I was driving, so I asked to call him back, so I could go over the numbers.

So apparently, they've had to do $425 worth of work so far to get all three of the cylinders apart and cleaned in order to give me an estimate. He said that one cylinder was hard to break down and took longer. I told him that was a lot of of hours to work on it without first calling me to let me know the situation. So I went over the remaing numbers. The seals for the cylinders are $32, $32, and $45, which is total of $109 for parts. Two of the cylinders need to be rechromed for $200 each, which is a total of $400. Currently, the cylinders are ready to be put back together. So, $1532 - ($425 [breakdown] + $109 [parts] + $400 [Rechrome]) = $598. Also, unless the two cylinders are rechromed there is no guarantee on the workmanship. So $598 is for putting the cylinders back together with the new seals. This is about 7 hours of labor at $85/hour. This is 4 more hours than what I thought I was going to pay for the entire job.

Just wondering if this seems right? I'm between work right now, so I don't really have the money to be spending on a backhoe thats not worth much more than $4000. I would appreciate any advice as to how I should proceed. Should I just pick up the broken down cylinders and pay the $425 and have someone else rebuild them or ??
 

Junkyard

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Jun 5, 2016
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3,635
Location
Claremore, OK
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Field Mechanic
Having had many a fight with a stubborn cylinder it's not hard to spend a fair amount of time on disassembly. That being said I would think they'd have a pretty good setup for teardown that would make it go quicker but even then there are occasions they just won't give up without a fight. How bad are the polish rods? How many hours a year will you use it? If they are badly pitted or knicked they probably need it. If there are a few dings that can be smoothed out then you might be ok without the rechrome. If you had pics to post we could give you a good idea. The quote doesn't seem too out of line for what they're doing. I've seen some pretty rough rods go a long time before they chewed through a set of seals. If they did in a couple years I'd imagine teardown again would go easier and it wouldn't cost so much. I'd weigh the options, budget, anticipated use etc.

Junkyard
 

Jonas302

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2015
Messages
1,198
Location
mn
Total price is within range One thing I have found is estimates at hydraulic shops are not free and it left a bad taste in my mouth for a while when I learned that :)
They didn't prepare you very well for the reality of getting into a 30 yr old cylinder they need to be torn down to estimate but it would have been good business practice to go over that quickly with you possibility of re chroming stuck nuts ect you may have only brought one in at a time
 

Diesel40B

Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2017
Messages
24
Location
Harpers Ferry WV
Having had many a fight with a stubborn cylinder it's not hard to spend a fair amount of time on disassembly. That being said I would think they'd have a pretty good setup for teardown that would make it go quicker but even then there are occasions they just won't give up without a fight. How bad are the polish rods? How many hours a year will you use it? If they are badly pitted or knicked they probably need it. If there are a few dings that can be smoothed out then you might be ok without the rechrome. If you had pics to post we could give you a good idea. The quote doesn't seem too out of line for what they're doing. I've seen some pretty rough rods go a long time before they chewed through a set of seals. If they did in a couple years I'd imagine teardown again would go easier and it wouldn't cost so much. I'd weigh the options, budget, anticipated use etc.

Junkyard

Thanks. This place mainly does cylinders, so that's why I took it to them. I assumed they had the tools and equipment and could perform it quicker than local garages. My two problems are that they performed 5 hours labor for an estimate without even calling me. Second, charging 7 hours of labor to put the disassembled and cleaned cylinders back together seems horribly wrong and in my opinion dishonest. Another person mentioned that the chroming charge was on the high side, which is something else I've never had done before. I can attach a picture of the cylinders, although you can't really see the condition of the rods. They told me I could pay the $425 labor plus the $109 for seals and then put them back together myself without rechroming. I'm not against the rechroming if its needed, but everything is starting to smell fishy.
 

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Diesel40B

Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2017
Messages
24
Location
Harpers Ferry WV
Total price is within range One thing I have found is estimates at hydraulic shops are not free and it left a bad taste in my mouth for a while when I learned that :)
They didn't prepare you very well for the reality of getting into a 30 yr old cylinder they need to be torn down to estimate but it would have been good business practice to go over that quickly with you possibility of re chroming stuck nuts ect you may have only brought one in at a time

Jonas302- Thanks. Yes, I might have only taken in the outrigger.
 

thepumpguysc

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Mar 18, 2010
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7,525
Location
Sunny South Carolina
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Master Inj.Pump rebuilder
Just to pour salt in the wound.. I know it sux..
I have a guy at my work who LOVES to rebuild cylinders!!
The customer buys the parts and he does them for 100.00 apiece.. takes him 1 hr.. I've brought him about 50.. all different types.
Granted, he never had 1 chromed BUT he will tell someone when there not worth rebuilding.
it's only happened once, BIG scratches on the rod & gouges in the cylinder..
All he uses is a ball peen, a spanner and a big bench vise, and I've seen him break out a pipe wrench ONCE..
He hasn't run into any he CANT get apart.. You would "think" that a shop that does it for aliving w/ all their fancy holding and turning tools could do it faster than that?? Your kinda stuck at the moment.. Just pay it and be done w/ them.. I know it sux..
 

Diesel40B

Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2017
Messages
24
Location
Harpers Ferry WV
Just to pour salt in the wound.. I know it sux..
I have a guy at my work who LOVES to rebuild cylinders!!
The customer buys the parts and he does them for 100.00 apiece.. takes him 1 hr.. I've brought him about 50.. all different types.
Granted, he never had 1 chromed BUT he will tell someone when there not worth rebuilding.
it's only happened once, BIG scratches on the rod & gouges in the cylinder..
All he uses is a ball peen, a spanner and a big bench vise, and I've seen him break out a pipe wrench ONCE..
He hasn't run into any he CANT get apart.. You would "think" that a shop that does it for aliving w/ all their fancy holding and turning tools could do it faster than that?? Your kinda stuck at the moment.. Just pay it and be done w/ them.. I know it sux..

Those guys are so valuable to a community. At this price it would have been worth it to make a road trip. I spoke to a local mechanic shop owner today and he said I should have asked him first. He did business with this company in the past and they did the same thing to him. Their labor rates make no sense. He suspects its during the time business is slow for them. He basically said the 7 hours of labor at $85/hr made no sense to put the cylinders back together.
 

td25c

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Feb 14, 2009
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5,250
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indiana
So weeks later, I removed the cylinders and took them into the shop. He said I'd need to leave them and they'd call me with an estimate. So, I get the call today and he tells me the estimate is $1532. I was driving, so I asked to call him back, so I could go over the numbers.

So apparently, they've had to do $425 worth of work so far to get all three of the cylinders apart and cleaned in order to give me an estimate.

Your at the wrong shop !

If a shop wants to keep a customer base they will stay in contact with you on cost at all times . $ 425.00 for an estimate on 3 cylinders on a backhoe ?

It's either the " hydraulic shop's " first day on the job or they are screwing you . Fire them and move on !

No excuse for this . If a customer needs help with an issue it's my job to do that . If it's going to go " basket case " expensive then pick up the phone and let the customer make the decision on it , after all it's there money !

Charging someone for an estimate ? WTF :rolleyes:

https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/threads/outriger-repack.11843/
http://www.heavytruckforums.com/showthread.php?263-Some-Holmes-750-action&p=1902&viewfull=1#post1902
 

old-iron-habit

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Nov 22, 2012
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Moose Lake, MN
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Retired Cons't. Supt./Hospitals
Why would they have to take the cylinder apart to know the ram was bad. All you do is extend them to look at the ram. The gouges and bad chrome would all be exposed. You got screwed. I've been doing my own for years. They are pretty simple and often you can leave the barrel on the machine to hold it. I have one cylinder with 4 huge scratches that I have smoothed out running vertical down the rod. The rod is 3" dia. and 5 ft long. Cost was over $1,500.00 a number of years ago. I pull the ram and install a new seal about every two years when it starts to seep. The seal cost is about $35.00. It amazes me at how bad a rod can be and with a new seal they often last quite a while. Takes me only about an hour now as I know exactly where to hang the come-along to balance it.
 

mikebramel

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Jul 15, 2012
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Location
milwaukee
The two lift cylinders you have usually come apart problem free. The style of tilt cylinder you have can definitely be a problem.

No way I'd chrome a loader that old, polish the rod and work over any defects. The seals will last a long time. To chrome those rods is around $75 each, maybe up to $150 if the corrosion is real bad, but unlikely.

7 hours maybe to hone the barrels and polish the seal grooves. 30-45min each times three. sooo.... lol
 

Diesel40B

Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2017
Messages
24
Location
Harpers Ferry WV
Why would they have to take the cylinder apart to know the ram was bad. All you do is extend them to look at the ram. The gouges and bad chrome would all be exposed. You got screwed. I've been doing my own for years. They are pretty simple and often you can leave the barrel on the machine to hold it. I have one cylinder with 4 huge scratches that I have smoothed out running vertical down the rod. The rod is 3" dia. and 5 ft long. Cost was over $1,500.00 a number of years ago. I pull the ram and install a new seal about every two years when it starts to seep. The seal cost is about $35.00. It amazes me at how bad a rod can be and with a new seal they often last quite a while. Takes me only about an hour now as I know exactly where to hang the come-along to balance it.

Old-iron-habit,
Thanks, I think this how they drum up business. I should have attempted one myself. Their over the phone estimate pulled me in. I agree with you on the chroming.
 

Diesel40B

Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2017
Messages
24
Location
Harpers Ferry WV
The two lift cylinders you have usually come apart problem free. The style of tilt cylinder you have can definitely be a problem.

No way I'd chrome a loader that old, polish the rod and work over any defects. The seals will last a long time. To chrome those rods is around $75 each, maybe up to $150 if the corrosion is real bad, but unlikely.

7 hours maybe to hone the barrels and polish the seal grooves. 30-45min each times three. sooo.... lol

Mike,
Thanks. I'm leaning that way. This machine doesn't have a lot of value and is only used occasionally.
 

Diesel40B

Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2017
Messages
24
Location
Harpers Ferry WV
Your at the wrong shop !

If a shop wants to keep a customer base they will stay in contact with you on cost at all times . $ 425.00 for an estimate on 3 cylinders on a backhoe ?

It's either the " hydraulic shop's " first day on the job or they are screwing you . Fire them and move on !

No excuse for this . If a customer needs help with an issue it's my job to do that . If it's going to go " basket case " expensive then pick up the phone and let the customer make the decision on it , after all it's there money !

Charging someone for an estimate ? WTF :rolleyes:

https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/threads/outriger-repack.11843/
http://www.heavytruckforums.com/showthread.php?263-Some-Holmes-750-action&p=1902&viewfull=1#post1902

TD25c,
They were talking over the phone that I could just come pick it up, but they want to charge me the $425 plus they wanted to see me the seals even though I never authorized them to bill hours. I might try to negotiate it and just cut my losses.
 

Diesel40B

Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2017
Messages
24
Location
Harpers Ferry WV
I visited the shop for the first time since dropping off the cylinders. They listened to my concerns and explained in detail what had happened. He said they normally call after about a half hour of labor, but for some reason it was missed. He adjusted the price for this error. He reviewed the rods and only one of them needed to be chromed. We came to an amicable agreement on the price and worked it out. I should get them back in about a week. I want to thank everyone who responded. It was very helpful and possibly next time I'll try the rebuild myself.
 

old-iron-habit

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Nov 22, 2012
Messages
4,233
Location
Moose Lake, MN
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Retired Cons't. Supt./Hospitals
I'm glad you got it worked out. I'm sure he felt it better to work with you than to have you reminding other folks that he will hoodwink folks if given a chance.
 

Welder Dave

Senior Member
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Oct 11, 2014
Messages
12,499
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Canada
Glad it worked out but I wonder if an employee or advisor (on commission) was trying to pad the bill? Seen that a few times and some repair shops are known for charging for stuff you don't need.
 

thepumpguysc

Senior Member
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Mar 18, 2010
Messages
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Sunny South Carolina
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Master Inj.Pump rebuilder
Dave, your right about that.. long ago, my dad asked me to look at the bill from the garage down the street..
He took his 6 cylinder truck for a tune-up.. I said, it looks reasonable.. but you might want to call them and ask them where they put the other 2 spark plugs. he was charged for 8 w/ extra labor because the "back two" were hard to replace..
it was a 6 cylinder and you coulda thrown a party w/ guests under that hood.. lol
We had a "discussion" w/ the owner and all was fine..
 
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