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Light Duty Trucks & Gooseneck Trailers

Discussion in 'Trailers' started by JCoates, Aug 8, 2008.

  1. JCoates

    JCoates Member

    Joined:
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    Occupation:
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    There seems to be a lot of confusion when it comes light duty trucks and Gooseneck trailers. I want to chime in my thoughts and knowledge on this matter cause i myself have registered a Ford F-550 truck and Gooseneck trailer. There are so many combination's of trucks and trailers out there, People do Dodge trucks with Gooseneck trailers, they are a dime a dozen i see them everywhere, Ford F-550 an Ford F450's are common too, trailers vary from pintle hooks to Goosenecks to fifth wheels.

    Now, Ford F-450 Trucks are good for 15,000lbs that means that the truck alone as a single is good for 15,000lbs less the gross weight of the truck, so we'll say the truck weighs roughly 7000lbs you can haul 8000lbs or 4 ton on the truck only.
    Combination is registered different, Ford F-450, good for 15,000lbs and we'll say you have a 12,000lbs tandem trailer, that gives you a gross weight of 27,000lbs total gross weight you can carry, less the empty weight we'll say the truck again weighs in at 7000lbs and depending on the length of the trailer we'll just say it weighs 7000lbs as well, So truck an Trailer in Combo is good for a gross weight of 27,000lbs your empty weight is 14,000lbs, this gives you 13,000lbs that you can legally haul in this combination.

    I have a Ford F-550, the MFG rated weight on the truck alone is 17,500lbs, I have a 22,000lbs Gooseneck trailer made by Big Tex it's the 22GN model it's a tandem dually 35 foot long with an upper deck. When you add the 17,500lbs for the Ford F-550 and the 22,000lbs trailer together it gives you a gross weight of 39,500lbs. I know it sounds like a lot for such a small truck which it is. I've plated the truck Registration in Combo for 40,000lbs, you need a class A CDL no air brake to drive this truck because it's over the 25,999lbs Registration.
    Now the Ford F-550 and Big Tex 22GN empty weigh about 17,500lbs, which allows me to legally scale 22,500lbs. And believe me anyone who knows anything about Fords and the Navistar 6.0 or 6.4 motor knows that motor doesn't like anything more than about 18,000lbs on the trailer, at least from my experience.

    I've also built a Peterbilt single axle to take the place of my Ford F-550 because like posted in previous threads this kinda weight calls for a bigger application. Just a short explanation on how my new truck will be registered, 1997 Pete 357 cab and Chassis, front axle is a 12,000lbs axle, rear axle is a 23,000lbs axle, makes the truck alone good for 35,000lbs less the empty weight of roughly 18,000lbs allows me to scale 17,000lbs on the truck only, in combination we'll use Big Tex 22GN which is good for 22,000lbs plus my trucks weight of 35,000lbs give me a Registered weight of 57,000lbs
    Of course don't forget to subtract you empty weight of we'll say 29,000lbs allows me to legally carry 28,000lbs. Now in this application understand that the trailer is only good for 22,000lbs. I've built the truck with a 15ft flatbed, when the Gooseneck is hooked to this truck i will have about 10ft of bed in front of were my trailer hooks to my truck allowing me to put machine attachments or other misc things up there, allowing me to use all of my registered weight of 57,000lbs or payload of 28,000lbs, break it down more simple, 57000lbs registered weight less the empty weight of 29,000lbs brings us to 28,000lbs, i load the trailer with a full 22,000lbs and i use my added 10ft of deck on the truck for a remainder 6000lbs, add em all up 6000lbs + 22,000lbs = 28,000lbs + empty weight of 29,000lbs = 57,000lbs.....plain an simple

    For you Dodge guys it's basically the same thing, if i was to own a dodge i would have a Cummins diesel motor and manual transmission to control the power, it's the same scenario, we'll say you have a Dodge 3500 series truck dually of course that truck is rated for 11,500lbs. I'm gonna use my Big Tex Application again at 22,000lbs this allows a gross weight of 33,500lbs less you empty weight of now I'm guessing here, we'll say an empty weight of 12,500lbs this will allow you to legally haul 21,000lbs. Will the truck like it, Probably not....

    I know a guy who has a Dodge 3500 series truck with just the specs i listed, he pulls a Gooseneck dump trailer, it's only a tandem trailer good for 12,000lbs, his truck is good for the MFG weight of 11,500 plus his trailer at 12,000lbs gives him a gross registered weight of 23,500lbs less his empty weight of 10,000lbs allows him to haul 13,500lbs. He does 3 to 4 times a week an never has any problems.

    This is all factual information, i've been to local D.O.T seminars and have used my truck and trailer to show people the right and wrong way of registering, securing and licensing a driver to drive a vehicle just like this. This Combination works with any light duty truck, GMC, Dodge, Ford, Internationals single axle Pete's and Kw's. It's all simple math depending on trailer GVW and Truck GVW. The only difference between your Pete's Internationals an Kw's is that those trucks more than likely will have air brakes which requires you to have your CDL with air brakes. Also i've seen guys build these combo's out of F-650's and F-750 Cab and chassis.

    Also remember this, i don't know how your states are but in Pa they don't plate trucks in Combination for we'll say 32,500lbs or 39,500lbs which I'm using my application for an example, i had to plate it for 40,000lbs in combination because that was the closest i could get to 39,500lbs, also i had to have an inspection garage sign off on the application for this registration verifying that the weight i was registering for was in compliance with the MFG weights such as the Ford F-550 at 17,500 and the Big Tex 22GN at 22,000lbs. Also when you Register this kinda weight your plates can get costly. I pay about $586.00 annually for a 40,000lbs class registration.

    Any Q's feel free to ask.......As an owner operator and family business owner i'm based on 35 years experience 17 years of my own, Heavy Hauling is what we do. I haul mini line of equipment on a daily basis an this is how it works!!

    Below are a few links of my smaller truck and my big truck just so you get an idea

    Ford F-550
    http://b6.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/0...44324696_l.jpg
    http://a564.ac-images.myspacecdn.com...bd43e9afe3.jpg
    http://a414.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/89/l_c93c06f2013d1b8751a36724fbbea8bd.jpg


    1997 Pete to replace F-550
    http://a547.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/59/l_7c5b4cd88f3bf4344052faf872bc768a.jpg

    1999 Pete
    http://i333.photobucket.com/albums/m391/jcoates75/DSC01794.jpg
    http://i333.photobucket.com/albums/m391/jcoates75/DSC01795.jpg
    http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a35/J6Coates/Linkbelt RT80100/DSC01673.jpg
    http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a35/J6Coates/Linkbelt RT80100/DSC01671.jpg
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2008
  2. JCoates

    JCoates Member

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    ???
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2008
  3. bentwrench

    bentwrench Member

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    ??????????????
     
  4. trenchman

    trenchman Member

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    So I have a Dodge 2500 with a GVW of 8000# and a tandem trailer rated at 14,000# so if I'm understanding you correctly I would be able to haul a full 14,000# and still be legal with my 3/4 ton truck or will I have to put my one ton truck on it? Any more info would be greatly appreciated. Keith
     
  5. HeyUvaVT

    HeyUvaVT Senior Member

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    finally a well written and as far as i can tell very informed answer to this most confusing issue....
     
  6. greywynd

    greywynd Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately, depending on the state/province it isn't that clear cut. One other factor that can come into it is the towing capacity of the truck as stated by the manufacturer, as well as the GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating) as stated by the manufacturer.

    Without looking up specifics, I won't give examples, but it's possible with certain truck/trailer combinations to tow a trailer that puts enough load on the truck to reduce your truck payload to almost nothing, sometimes even be over loaded, and still have a trailer that is within the tow capacities of the truck. Where these weird combinations occur tend to be in the 3/4 and one ton class of trucks. I see it a lot on some of the truck/horse (livestock) trailers that are around.
     
  7. Dualie

    Dualie Senior Member

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    the only thing i find fault with is a single rear axle with dual wheels can only gross 20,000 Lbs max per federal regs.
     
  8. JCoates

    JCoates Member

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    This is for Trenchman!!

    Here's how it work for you, Dodge 2500 good for 8000lbs + 14,000lbs trailer, you would need to register your truck in combination, combination is the big word here, register it for 22,000lbs. Once you do that, figure out you empty weight of your truck and trailer, we'll say you truck and trailer empty weigh 8000lbs you could haul the full 14,000lbs, you just gotta make sure your registration is good for your truck weight + trailer weight in combination, if you use your 3/4 ton that will change your GVW in combination cause that truck is rated for more weight than a 2500 series truck, of course when you use a bigger truck that also changes the empty weight as well..

    Hope this helps, PM me if you have any other ?'s

    JCoates A.K.A. "Chainman"


     
  9. JCoates

    JCoates Member

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    This is for greywynd!!

    Most MFG don't post a GCVW because of this issue that most people don't know anything about, My ford F-550 doesn't have a MFG weight for a GCVW. It just states that the truck is good for 17,500, that was also the reason why my state requires an inspection station to sign off on the application when i applied for such a large amount of weight for such a small truck....

    Also with live stock, you never know what weight is gonna be in the trailer unless your hauling the same animals around constantly. I see your point though with the livestock, and i'm sure it can get tricky when the weight is never the same!!


    JCoates A.K.A. "Chainman"
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2008
  10. JCoates

    JCoates Member

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    Dualie

    Were did you see that law? And how does it state that Axle weight, is it gross weight on that axle? The only reason why i ask is because of this, depending on the length of the trailer and the size of the load you will never see 20,000lbs on that rear drive if you load the trailer correctly, I've had close to 20,000lbs on my trailer and i load most of it in the rear, which in my case the trailer axles are good for 22,000lbs so the chance of 20,000lbs being on a rear drive a slim to none if you distribute your load correctly.

    I'm not saying the law you speak about is untrue, i'm just curious to know were you read that law and if you've ever been stopped and exceeded that weight on a dually drive,.........Let me know!!

    JCoates A.K.A. "Chainman"
     
  11. JCoates

    JCoates Member

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    HeyUvaVT

    Thank you sir!!

    I've been to so many D.O.T seminars and you can't believe the people that are registered the wrong way and get fined out the ass!! I hope this helps whom ever out, and to be more accurate for anyone else that needs help, i would say if you have any questions know your empty weight of your truck and trailer that way i can give you more real time numbers for you to register you truck under!!

    JCoates A.K.A. "Chainman"
     
  12. Dualie

    Dualie Senior Member

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    just running from the CA website before i leave for work

    35550. (a) The gross weight on any one axle shall not exceed 20,000 pounds, and the gross weight upon any one wheel, or wheels, supporting one end of an axle, shall not exceed 10,500 pounds.

    From the Q&A section of the Federal highway administration.

    May States set weight limits on the Interstate System at less than the Federal maximum weight limits?

    No. When Interstate System weight limits were raised to the current levels in 1974 (20,000 pounds single axle, 34,000 pounds tandem axle, 80,000 pounds overall gross weight limits, plus bridge formula limits), States were not required to raise their limits accordingly, although most did. However, six contiguous States in the Mississippi valley, referred to as the "barrier States," did not and effectively limited the weight for all vehicles moving across them to their own limits. This was changed in 1982 when Congress established Interstate System weight limits as minimums as well as maximums

    we also have really screwball laws for tag and drop axles here in CA.


    I personally haven't been stopped for exceeding the weight on a dually tire as I run top notch tires. I have been over my axle weight ratings on my old 450 though. The cop was kind enough to let me adjust my load and re weigh which solved the problem.

    Made it tow like CRAP! but solved my weight problem. I promptly slid it back forward two exits down the highway.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2008
  13. JCoates

    JCoates Member

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    Dualie

    There is some info i knew nothing about, i only find it hard to exceed that kinda weight in my application, I've never been stopped for exceeding an axle in this little truck, of course most of the time i'm loading the load over the tandem dually in the rear on the trailer, i know what you mean about the truck riding like crap when your load isn't in a certain position and i would a done the same thing you did, also from my knowledge, when getting weighed an exceeding an axle you are allowed to make adjustments for a re-weigh......


    JCoates A.K.A. "Chainman"
     
  14. Dualie

    Dualie Senior Member

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    Depends on the cop. Their supposed to let you try and adjust the load if your just over on an axle. but if your over gross then your screwed.

    If he's having a bad day he could "Just" fine you for being over, then let you adjust the load to "get" legal and not red tag you. if your less than 2K over they will just fine you. Anything more than that your red tagged till you offload.

    Another thing you didn't mention is that when loading a "Tag" or bumper pull trailer is that your cannot take away more than 50% of the trucks EMPTY front axle weight. It can happen. Tow trucks are the most susceptible to this kind of weigh transfer but a hugh Jazz tag trailer can have the same effect.

    I know with my 6 horse trailer and the 2000 F-350 dually the scale ticket was27,975 Lbs combined. I was way over on the gross but under on all the axles (BARELY) Truck would pull that combo up to 95 Mph+ with no problem, usually ran about 70 ish and had plenty of brakes

    Never got hassled with that setup crossing the country 10-15 times.

    Orange county,CA to Lexington Va and Orange county, CA to Columbus OH. Having to pull into most every states port of entry acrossed the scales for animal health papers. Not a single DOT cop batted an eyelash.

    When dad stepped up and got the lil Pete 330 4 door that was MUCH safer doing the job I started getting hassled for HOS and CDL checks.

    Dad had the local pete dealer "tune it" and when you were on the throttle hard it would roll some smoke every time it would shift. That got me pulled over in CA for an opacity test good thing they didnt see me flip that aux switch that controlled the boost harness.

    I just did the two log book shuffle kept one in the trailer. IN a manilla envelope with stamps and my Home address on it. Takes a federal search warrant to open U.S. mail.

    FYI Arizona was the worst.

    I have been known to load our Drott carry deck crane on the tilt deck gooseneck behind the 00 F-350 a time or two for a quick trip. And I know im NO WHERE near legal with that setup. It rides much better on the Murray 16 tire but the PSD pitches in when need be for shorter trips.
     
  15. bobcatrg

    bobcatrg Well-Known Member

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    Excellent information!
     
  16. Safety Mgmt.

    Safety Mgmt. Active Member

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    As of January 01, 2009 all Interstate and all Intrastate companies with a single truck or a truck trailer combination of 10,001# GVWR is all regulated the same, under the Federal Motor Carrier Safety regulations. If your truck or truck/trailer is over 26,000# GVWR you are subject to the CDL license. If your combination is over 26,000# GVWR and the trailer is over 10,000# GVWR then you must have the Class A CDL license. If your truck or truck/trailer combination is 26,000# or under then no CDL required but, you must have either an operator's license or a Chauffeur's license if required by your state, (such as Michigan is). All driver's in commercial commerce driving a regulated truck or truck/trailer combination must have a current medical pocket card. CDL drivers are subject to part 382 and be pre-employment drug tested before driving and within the same test cycle be put into a random testing pool for both drugs and alcohol. We can help get everyone into compliance before the tickets start...
     
  17. RFD_Truckie

    RFD_Truckie New Member

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    Good info here... I have been trying to figure out how to make this work... Thanks

    Jim
     
  18. Speedpup

    Speedpup Senior Member

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    Sp after all the good reading here my Dodge 3500 2001 has the axles weights listed as I remember. They equaled about 12,500 I guess that is the GVWR?
    Where do you find the CGVWR? I read here Dodge & others don't give it?

    I also have a 1984 GMC since new with 28,000 GVWR where would I find the CGVWR? Thanks!

    I have a 12 ton GVWR 1980 ton Reid trailer since new. The trailer is about 68XX as I remember. Thanks

    Confession years ago I would put a Lull on it and it was 23,500 Lb I thought the 12 ton trailer was what it could carry.:eek: I registered the trailer for 33,000 as I remember. One day I was getting tires and saw the max rate rating for each tire And then knew I had a problem:(
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2010
  19. Safety Mgmt.

    Safety Mgmt. Active Member

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    ;) The DOT regulations Part 390.5 in definitions is clear on what the GVWR and CGVWR are. Most and I say most trucks will give you the GVWR on the driver's door casing tag. If you cannot find it there go to the manual in the glove box, can't find it there take the vin number and call the local dealer and they can get you the GVWR. Same with trailers. Flat beds is on the tongue usually behind the triangle hitch plate, stamped in the metal. Enclosed trailers is on a riveted tag, usually on the driver's side corner of the box of the trailer. If you cannot find it, call a dealer of that brand of trailer, go online and get a number and call with the model and length. If you have a fifth wheel trailer it is stamped on the fifth wheel tongue somewhere. If you can't find it get a hold of a dealer. Got an assembled trailer? You first must know what the axles are. 3,500#, 5,000#, 7,000#, 10,000# and so on. Then once you know what they will take as weight, you can then load the trailer with your heaviest load you normally haul, go to a certified scales at a feed mill, scrap metal yard or a cat scales, unhook the trailer and weight only the loaded trailer, now you have established the GVWR not to exceed what the axles are rated for. Example: you have a 22' trailer with two 5,000# axles, weight the heaviest load and it comes up to 9,480#, set the GVWR at 9,800#, paint it on the tongue and your done. Axles are stamped with the GVW on them somewhere. Remember you have to have tires that are heavy enough to run the max load on them also. Don't put light cheaper tires on and then overload them. If the tire states on the rubber it will handle a load of 3,200# at 50# of air that means you take the four tires on the trailer and times 3,200# X 4 tires and you get a combined haul weight of 12,800# max. if the axles are 5,000# each X 2 axles then you have 12,800# of tires and 10,000# on the trailer so if you put the GVWR at 9,800# everything will haul the load. If anyone needs more help get a hold of me by phone and I'll help what I can.
     
  20. Speedpup

    Speedpup Senior Member

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    :drinkup:drinkup thank you!