JD 4045 w HPCR - wet fuel in all cylinder - will not run

[03hdrk]

The exhaust ports are all about equally wet with fuel and soot. The exh pipe at the turbo had about 1/2" of wet soot in it - again I feel sure it is fuel. Injectors removed - no obvious damage. Turbo spin freely - could use a rebuild but I have seen worse slack and running fine. Everyone I have asked have a quick answer until I say " all four at the same time". Most say injectors. Some say timing - which should mean ECM? correct.? Only code is "rail pressure"- no indication if that means high or low since I am not a JD tech with a computer - the code is in the Magnum controller and it has only appeared once during many attempt to start. Compression seems fine, but I am having hell finding an adapter - so all I can do is try to hold a fitting over the injector port by hand - it blow my hand off - violently. Still have not rules out bad rings until I get a good adapter to do compression test, but most experienced mechanics that I talk to say that if it blows my hand off that bad on all four, it is probably OK. Has 11k hours on it.

Not sure where to go from here. Test injectors? Again - all four failing at the same time?
Can the ECM cause this without throwing codes by the dozens?
Can extreme wet stacking cause this?

Thanks

 

[mikebramel]

Have you proved the injectors are being actuated? Does the cam or crank sensor provide a good waveform?

 

[Birken Vogt]

I know nothing about HPCR but I have seen other machines have all injectors gradually get worse until the customer complains and do it at about the same time since they have all had the same life.

And 10k hours seems to be when it happens as well.

 

[03hdrk]

Have you proved the injectors are being actuated? Does the cam or crank sensor provide a good waveform?

I think you are asking if I have tested the sensors? No I have not.
From your question, I am guessing that the sensors would have to be tested with a oscilloscope or a function on a JD diagnostics system? I am not a JD dealer so I don't have a JD system.

I like learning new things, so if there is a way I can test them I would be glad to listen.

I actually have 2 new sensors - the dealer said it had 2 - I just have not put them on yet because I was wanting to do compression test while I had the injectors out - that way I could eliminate compression as the problem.

Thanks - keep the help coming.

 

[03hdrk]

I know nothing about HPCR but I have seen other machines have all injectors gradually get worse until the customer complains and do it at about the same time since they have all had the same life.

And 10k hours seems to be when it happens as well.

I would think that for all 4 to get so bad that they are dumping fuel equally , the engine would have coded in someway - say rpms, frequency, etc. and 1 or 2 of the cylinder would look dry.

I am not "disputing" your help - just putting some thoughts out there. I think it helps us all.

Any thoughts or theories are appreciated

 

[GregD1]

When was the last time it had good load bank to clean it out ?

 

[lantraxco]

Definitely send all four injectors to a fuel shop for testing, or the Deere dealer if they have the ability. Since you have them out anyway, eliminate that possibility right off, money well spent, either they test good or you replace them, that way you're working with a known good set.

As GregD1 hints at, if this unit is running lightly loaded most of the time, it's bound to cold stack no matter how good the electronics I should think Of course if there's a sensor issue or the like, you may be getting overfuel without any codes, the computer can only follow the map according to the inputs it's getting.

 

[03hdrk]

When was the last time it had good load bank to clean it out ?

It is my understanding that it was in the field running a single motor on a pump jack (oil well). So, more than likely it was a light load. They said it was out for 2 months - so NO I am sure it was not "burned out" (that is what I call load banking) before some cold stacking (I thought that term was "wet stacking"? I think it is interesting hearing different terms used).

I asked a few generator mechanics if you could wet/cold stack one bad enough that this would happen. What is your experience and thoughts on this?

I will now reply to the next post below.

Thanks

 

[03hdrk]

Definitely send all four injectors to a fuel shop for testing, or the Deere dealer if they have the ability. Since you have them out anyway, eliminate that possibility right off, money well spent, either they test good or you replace them, that way you're working with a known good set.

As GregD1 hints at, if this unit is running lightly loaded most of the time, it's bound to cold stack no matter how good the electronics I should think Of course if there's a sensor issue or the like, you may be getting overfuel without any codes, the computer can only follow the map according to the inputs it's getting.

I agree on the injector testing - plan on doing that as soon as I can prove compression - hate to spend the money if the engine's done. I think I mentioned that I am having hell finding a compression test adapter. I took the one back today that RDO (our local yellow Deere dealer) sold me as the right one - it was close but would not work. They are supposed to try again next week.

Do ya'll think there is a chance that if compression is good and I get a known set of good injectors - that I could maybe clean out the cylinders by sucking anything out that I can with the oil vac - then clean the turbo to get all the slime off the exhaust side - and the engine may run!?!?

What do think?

Thanks

 

[Birken Vogt]

I missed the part about "engine will not run". Ignore my advice about normal injector wear at 10k hours. It is normal to smoke and slobber and need replacement but normally they are still running OK if that happens...

I just had a smaller one that did something similar and it turned out the catalyst was plugged completely solid with soot so check for that; it's easy enough to check....

I agree on the injector testing - plan on doing that as soon as I can prove compression - hate to spend the money if the engine's done. I think I mentioned that I am having hell finding a compression test adapter. I took the one back today that RDO (our local yellow Deere dealer) sold me as the right one - it was close but would not work. They are supposed to try again next week.

Do ya'll think there is a chance that if compression is good and I get a known set of good injectors - that I could maybe clean out the cylinders by sucking anything out that I can with the oil vac - then clean the turbo to get all the slime off the exhaust side - and the engine may run!?!?

What do think?

Thanks

 

[GregD1]

If it is a common rail system and has electronic injectors don`t remove them without marking what cylinder they come out of. They are programmed into the ECU using the numbers on the tag each injector comes with. They are also a pricey little number. We had to replace one a few weeks ago and it was close to $600.00.

 

[03hdrk]

Birken - by catalyst" do you mean catalytic converter?

 

[03hdrk]

This site takes my keystrokes too slow!!

 

[partsandservice]

Does this engine have an egr? Charge air , or air inlet stopped up? The low rail pressure code can be set after a fuel filter change. The ECM will not turn the injectors on until a specified rail pressure is reached. It sounds like multiple issues to me. Low rail pressure can be caused by low supply pressure, worn hpfp , stuck open rail relief, or faulty injector. A single leaking injector will drop the rail pressure across the entire rail.

 

[Birken Vogt]

Birken - by catalyst" do you mean catalytic converter?

Yes, or any part of the exhaust pipe, really. On the one I was talking about the intake was wet and sloppy because it would come up on compression, inject fuel, and partially fire, then when the intake valve opened the increased pressure in the cylinder would blow oily soot back into the intake. You could put your hand over the exhaust pipe and nothing was coming out while cranking.

 

[03hdrk]

Keystroke normal now so I can reply. Guess I had something slowing my computer down.

I don't see any kind of egr

now my keystrokes are screwed up again - takes me a minute to type one line!!! Is this site spell checking after every letter or something - I cant reply like this!?

Anyone else have this problem on this site?

I will try again tomorrow

 

[03hdrk]

Let me try again - back to normal now.

I don't see an EGR of any kind. I am taking everyones advice. I will check the muffler, but the white/gray rich fuel smoke that came out of it when trying to start was a sign of at least some air flow. Funny that an hour later when I was removing the muffler, every time I opened the flapper, a light vapor, like one of the E cigarettes puts out, would come out.

I understand what your saying about the ecm not allowing injection until certain parameters are met, but unfortunately I don't have a computer to look at anything. Is there anyway for an independent mechanic, like me, to get a diagnostics system that would work with these Power Tech engines?

I get on my soap box frequently - it is frustrating when every dealer service center we have tried either takes too long, doesn't seem to fix the problem, does poor work, or just charges too much. It is almost like they don't know how to use their own equipment. When you see an invoice where so many things were replaced that did not fix the problem, then something else was replaced, then something else, then something else... Then something finally causes the codes to go a away - it makes you wonder if they know how to diagnose an engine - the bills get so high that soon your at the value of the unit and you wish you had just used that money toward a new one. I don't mean to sound like a !##!??, but most of the techs in these shop these days, I would not attempt to hire because they don't listen so they can learn. So many are young and inexperienced, yet we have to pay $125 or more an hour for them. When I end up meeting some of them, I think they were hired because they are willing to work for low wages so the shop can make more money. I will say that I meet many good ones- young and old - but it is the norm. I could go on and on... I will step down off my soap box now.

I had an injection shop theorize that water made it to the rail then the injectors - said he has seen it before. I personally have had many injector problems with pick-ups in my life (although not with water) and don't know why I did not think of that as a possibility to explain "all four". He recommended that I replace the entire fuel system, otherwise I may ruin any new injectors I install.

I have cleaned up so much fuel in tanks for this company, even last week, that I cannot remember the gallons. I have seen a lot of water and fungus/algae problems in many units. I would be easy to believe that water made it to the system. I have decided not to spend any more time on this unit until I prove the engine is good - if it is not, it may be scrapped.

At this point I am waiting on the compression test adapter(the second one). Once I rule out compression, I will have the injectors tested and go from there. Keep the ideas coming, I really appreciate it.

I am about to post about another JD 6068 problem, just FYI

 

[lantraxco]

You're preaching to the choir, I had the same complaints thirty years ago.

On the other side of the coin, if you're a dealer mechanic, the big names are throwing new systems, new software, new diagnostic tools, and changes, mods, and updates to all of those at the poor service techs faster than any human can absorb and retain. One thing about the electronics, the service manager and the factory expect you to be able to plug in the laptop, do a few screens of checking, read error codes and implement the suggested fix, boom. When you have a wiring issue, connector issue, act of god or physics issue that throws error codes that have absolutely nothing to do with the actual problem, then you have to recognize that and go old school, which these guys never were trained for or had experience in, and at that point the electronics just get in the way of diagnosing the problem.

In the early 90's I suggested in more than one meeting where the management team were present along with parts, service, undercarriage (me), PSSR's were all present that the logical answer to screwups and comebacks in the shop was to pair the younger lads with some of the gray haired techs for some "seasoning" on the bigger jobs. My thoughts are that the old fellers will keep a paw on the young pups, keep them slowed down a bit so they're safe and don't miss things, teach them things they think they already know, and feel a lot better about their hard earned knowledge being appreciated. You can bet the older guys would be stepping up their game a bit too, not gonna let some kid show them up at the end of the day!. I was soundly booed out of the meeting by the service managers. Another former job, LOL.

Good luck with it.

 

[Birken Vogt]

I have had many with water in fuel. If the injection system is really full of solid water, comparatively rare but it does happen, then it often will put out a bit of light steam vapor when cranking which is the atomized water being injected, which will make you think that it is getting some fuel but not igniting. It even smells a bit like diesel to fool you. But not the solid white putrid clouds of fuel vapor we are all used to when an engine really is injecting fuel but not starting. It is easy enough to check for water by cracking something open and sampling it with your fingers, etc. Especially when it has red dye fuel in it; the red dye does not transfer to water.

Let me try again - back to normal now.

I don't see an EGR of any kind. I am taking everyones advice. I will check the muffler, but the white/gray rich fuel smoke that came out of it when trying to start was a sign of at least some air flow. Funny that an hour later when I was removing the muffler, every time I opened the flapper, a light vapor, like one of the E cigarettes puts out, would come out.

I understand what your saying about the ecm not allowing injection until certain parameters are met, but unfortunately I don't have a computer to look at anything. Is there anyway for an independent mechanic, like me, to get a diagnostics system that would work with these Power Tech engines?

I get on my soap box frequently - it is frustrating when every dealer service center we have tried either takes too long, doesn't seem to fix the problem, does poor work, or just charges too much. It is almost like they don't know how to use their own equipment. When you see an invoice where so many things were replaced that did not fix the problem, then something else was replaced, then something else, then something else... Then something finally causes the codes to go a away - it makes you wonder if they know how to diagnose an engine - the bills get so high that soon your at the value of the unit and you wish you had just used that money toward a new one. I don't mean to sound like a !##!??, but most of the techs in these shop these days, I would not attempt to hire because they don't listen so they can learn. So many are young and inexperienced, yet we have to pay $125 or more an hour for them. When I end up meeting some of them, I think they were hired because they are willing to work for low wages so the shop can make more money. I will say that I meet many good ones- young and old - but it is the norm. I could go on and on... I will step down off my soap box now.

I had an injection shop theorize that water made it to the rail then the injectors - said he has seen it before. I personally have had many injector problems with pick-ups in my life (although not with water) and don't know why I did not think of that as a possibility to explain "all four". He recommended that I replace the entire fuel system, otherwise I may ruin any new injectors I install.

I have cleaned up so much fuel in tanks for this company, even last week, that I cannot remember the gallons. I have seen a lot of water and fungus/algae problems in many units. I would be easy to believe that water made it to the system. I have decided not to spend any more time on this unit until I prove the engine is good - if it is not, it may be scrapped.

At this point I am waiting on the compression test adapter(the second one). Once I rule out compression, I will have the injectors tested and go from there. Keep the ideas coming, I really appreciate it.

I am about to post about another JD 6068 problem, just FYI

 

[03hdrk]

Lantraxco - interesting story. I have been in similar situations in some of my previous jobs. I started believing that the "apprentice" system that is required to get some licenses (like master electrician) needs to be used in everything. I think they still do that in Europe - doubt it is perfect, but it would prevent many of the problems we see in this country. Most Americans believe that engineers are idiots, and if you work on engineered products like equipment - you really start believing it - just shows - education is worth nothing without experience - but in this country we believe a diploma(or some other paper) makes every thing right. In my part of the world there are help wanted signs everywhere. May not be good jobs, but they are jobs. Everywhere I go I meet some young person that I have known for years and they say they can't find a "good" job so they are doing nothing or very little - but they are thinking about going back to school. I guess the teachers finally had some success - they taught the kid something that stuck - education is king - more school means your doing the right thing - be yourself - do what you want to do ... BULL! I would have hired a helper years ago, but I have tried too many times with a young person - they say they want to learn then they do otherwise - one of them even quit me to go to ASE school - got out and doesn't like the low pay in auto shops - because he is certified he thinks he should make more - now he is a grunt in the oilfield - doesn't matter - he was no better after school than he was before.

You had an excellent idea, for longevity, they should have listened.

I just got off the phone with Magnum - I told the guy up front " I have an engine problem so I doubt you can help me" he asked for the SN and then promptly told me I would need to get a John Deere "technician" to look at it. I got on my soap box and politely told him that I have recommended that the owners not buy any more of their machines - just wanted to see what response - he just said something like - "yeah, I know, its hard to get good service at some dealers".!?!??!?!

He won't tell anyone what I said, and if he did, it would probably go nowhere. So when they go out of business, everyone will say it was someone elses fault. I notices that now Magnum is owned by Generac - the Walmart of generators - build cheap and throwaway - sell em at northern tool and tractor supply. Don't need technicians to replace the whole thing.

WHY WOULD A COMPANY BUILD SOMETHING AND NOT EVEN WANT TO BE ABLE TO WORK ON WHAT THEY BUILD.

Without a JD computer, I doubt I will be able to do much. Makes me wonder how long I will be able to keep this company in repair.

Sad thing is. This company has pretty strong base the oilfield. Now that times are hard, they are tightening the belt. TierIV gensets are the ones left in the fleet - all the old school genset are gone. Used to be - 15k hours out of a turbo - now its 8K on some. Used to be $450 for turbo rebuild, now 2400 for new turbo - expensed and downtime through the roof, income in the ditch. And when Magnum looks at their sales and wonders what happened to their big customer - they will probably just blame it on the nature of the oil field - when in reality - we will be buying some other brand hoping to have better luck.

Damn soap box is getting worn out ...