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Is it a big deal to add a few gallons of John Deere Hy-Gard to Amsoil?

Discussion in 'Lubrication' started by joeeye59, Sep 6, 2008.

  1. joeeye59

    joeeye59 Senior Member

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    My 1988 310c John Deere backhoe has all fairly new ATH Synthetic Amsoil in it...

    After blowing a hose I lost a lot of fluid and don't feel like buying the same Amsoil fluid cause its way up there in price, it's now $115.00 for a 5 gallon bucket plus shipping.

    Whats the deal? Can I use the John Deere Hy-Gard Hydraulic fluid with out a problem? I don't think its synthetic where the Amsoil is.

    The machine has one hydraulic fluid filter & pump for all components, like the rear axle, the reverser, etc...

    Any suggestions?
     
  2. digger242j

    digger242j Administrator

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    I moved this thread down here to Lubrication, since it could apply to a number of different equipment types.

    The lubrication experts have been pretty active here recently, so I expect you shouldn't have to wait long for an answer.
     
  3. bobcatmechanic

    bobcatmechanic Senior Member

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    if its a new machine it could void your warranty if they want to get technical about it at the dealership and take an oil sample a nd it comes back contaminated or not to their specks also they design the systems to run on their oil as bobcat oil i know has a foam resistant agent in it to prevent cavitation from air in the oil aslo the heat factor plays a role in the oil and machine life
     
  4. RollOver Pete

    RollOver Pete Senior Member

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    Unless you live on the moon or out in the middle of no where, why would you pay that kind of money for oil plus shipping?
    Sure you need to use synthetic where it is called for,
    but I promise you, no matter how much you spend on it,
    Amsoil will leak out just as fast as any other oil.
    I doubt that your 88 JD calls for synthetic,
    so why waste your money?
    As for adding the JD oil in with the Amsoil?
    It won't hurt anything and your JD tractor may even run better on JD oil.
    I bet your tractor originally came with JD oil.
    :cool:
     
  5. Johnsoils

    Johnsoils Site Sponsor

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    joeeye59, AMSOIL ATH is compatible with the JD High-Gard fluid, so you won't have any issues with compatibility. You will be losing some of the benefits of the AMSOIL that you paid for when adding the JD conventional fluid to it.

    With the AMSOIL you have the benefits of improved cold temperature flow, reduced wear, lower operating temperatures, improved fuel economy and extended fluid drains to name a few. There are no warranty issues with the AMSOIL or AMSOIL mixed with JD Hy-Gard, as both meet JD specs. The choice is yours to make, and yes the prices of all oils (conventional and synthetic) have gone up dramatically in the past year or two. I always remind my customers who are struggling with the cost of AMSOIL of the benefits AMSOIL brings to the table: reduced wear, lower cold-flow capabilities (reduces or eliminates cavitation caused by pump starvation due to lack of fluid flow caused by the higher cold-flow points of conventional fluids), lower operating temperature, improved fuel economy, and extended drain intervals to name a few. You made the switch to AMSOIL on this machine for a reason, so please consider the benefits of the product. I'm confident the benefits will outweigh the price difference. Thanks for the question, and hopefully this post answered you questions and concerns on the compatibility of AMSOIL and JD Hy-Gard. Thanks, John
     
  6. joeeye59

    joeeye59 Senior Member

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    Great! thank you very much for the info... I got this machine from someone who bought it at auction, so all the oil in it was black and dirty, plus the machine has 9K hours on it and its running great, and sounds good, so I wanted to really take care of it the best I can...

    My background is mainly with cars, auto mechanic with gasoline engines in the automotive field for the last 34 years, so I've come to learn a great deal about oils and how they change, plus how there are so many different specs for vehicles and heavy machinery for oil and lube, so I rather not guess I know already because I'm familiar with what cars need for oil & lube.. I might miss something I need to know.... so being I know nothing about heavy equipment I have to ask...
     
  7. joeeye59

    joeeye59 Senior Member

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    Update if you'd like to know:

    After blowing a hose and topping off with the cheap hyd fluid about 8 gallons of it I got at Sam's Club didn't seem to mix in well with the Amsoil.... the hyd started to skip a beat as if the pistons are reacting to different compression rates of the two hyd fluids mixing... or not mixing?

    Amsoil was an experiment and I didn't like it, my ears tell the story about that.

    So I'm going to put in all John Deere product now.... I hope I didn't ruin anything, especially the hyd pump being it looks like the original from 1988 with years of dirt and grease/oil all over it.

    I know the hyd filters prior to the Amsoil were clear of any signs of metal, I hope the hyd filter thats on there now is still clear of metal.... because even tho Amsoil looks to be of a high quality it was not for my 1988 John Deere 310c backhoe with 9k hours on it...

    I swear as soon as I started to use Amsoil I got howling from the loader piston/valve when hot, or perhaps it was something else? I'm always all ears when I operate this machine, and from day one I didn't like the way it sounded with Amsoil... honestly my opinion, its not for older broken in machines that already have been broken in with a conventional hydraulic fluid, I will guess the metal wear patterns are different with different oils? (to put it primitively)...

    No matter what happens, after I put in all JD's Hy-Gard hyd. fluid and if I see metal in the hyd filter I believe it would be wise to put on a new hyd pump... I understand if I wait too long as a pump is going bad the flow of larger and more metal fragments through out the hyd system will damage several components in it's path... yes? or will fluid analysis tell me this even earlier to be safe?
     
  8. OneWelder

    OneWelder Senior Member

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    I have never used amsol-
    but have seen a # of specialty oils, one was only in the machine 1/2 hf before we had to change it .They quite often do not work on old equipment. My thought is that the additive package thins the oil to much allowing it to bypass in the pump. That makes oil run hot , noisy pumps, etc.
     
  9. joeeye59

    joeeye59 Senior Member

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    I believe you hit the mark! Thanks for the feedback backing up what I'm going thru is not all in my head. I thought I was going nuts making too much out of something that might not have been oil related issues ....I was finding it hard to believe that my machine was not sounding too good because of that fluid/oil... especially when I started to hear the hydraulics make noise when hot, that got me pretty upset cause I knew it had to be the oil, but I kept telling my self I paid too much to drain it now :)

    It's a little upsetting for me, and I'm sure for people like me that honestly want to use the best oil & fluids in an old machine like mine to get the most out of it, and to know its been tried and tested that it will work properly with no side affects. So I just called the company who owned it before in NJ and left a voice mail message asking for that info. I hope this guy calls back, I believe a lot of people would like to know what they used to get 9k hours on what looks like the original hyd pump and not a spec of metal in the filter :)

    I guess word of mouth and experence as well as knowledge is the way to go when picking an oil/fluid.... being I'm new to this I guess I need to get out there and start asking whats everybody doing....

    Thats odd that Amsoil is made out to be the greatest oil ever for todays protection demand, I'm sure it's a great line of fluids and oils, but in what applications is what I'd like to know where? perhaps only in auto engines? ....

    I don't mind spending the money for a better oil, but this hit or miss deal is not for me, might as well go with JD oils & fluids, or what ever else has been known to work well....

    thanks again, I apprecate the comments....
     
  10. joeeye59

    joeeye59 Senior Member

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    Here is some interesting news, I just got a return call from the company who owned my 1988 JD 310c backhoe since it was new.... he told me he used Castrol 15-40 conventional oil for the engine, and Castrol UTF for the hydraulics.

    That was nice of the guy to take the time to return my call.... this sounds like the way to go for me.... Now I just need to see how I can tell if my hyd pump is going bad so I can replace it before it takes out everything in its path.... I'm pretty sure it's a little on the weak side, but not sure if thats normal and okay?
     
  11. Johnsoils

    Johnsoils Site Sponsor

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    I haven't had any hydraulic experiences like yours, but I will ask some of the other AMSOIL dealers that I have routine contact with to see if any of their customers have experienced similar issues on high hour hydraulic systems.

    Please don't let this experience with AMSOIL or synthetic fluids turn you away from them. I'm confident there is a logic explaination for this howling noise, we just need to find it.

    Thanks for the updates and I emailed you the oil analysis users guide tonight. Thanks, John
     
  12. joeeye59

    joeeye59 Senior Member

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    I drained the amsoil and put in all JD Hy-Gard hydraulic fluid today, and it went back to better than normal, everything is very quite and the response from the levers feel a lot better... I can't believe the stabilizers have gotten so much stronger.

    For some reason Amsoil didn't work for my older machine with high hours.... but that don't mean its not a good oil... I'm sure things like some science, math along with the mechanics and condition plays a part between the two came up different not making a match to use amsoil.

    I have Amsoil in the engine (diesel) so I'm looking forward to having the good protection from having the synthetic... I'm going to keep on top of the oil being tested for engine wear, I've heard from a few people that they've seen my kind of engine go way past the 9100 hours I have on it, they seen it go up to 15K hours and still running strong.
     
  13. Johnsoils

    Johnsoils Site Sponsor

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    One question that was brought up was viscosity of the AMSOIL and JD Hy-Gard. I'm assuming they were the same, correct? Still trying to figuire this one out.

    Which AMSOIL are you running in the engine: 5W-30 or 15W-40? Both are outstanding oils, and should give you the best wear protection, improved cold cranking and extended oil drain intervals.
     
  14. joeeye59

    joeeye59 Senior Member

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    The engine has the 15W-40 and everything seems fine.... It was the hydraulic system I got the howl type noise from the loader unit....
     
  15. Johnsoils

    Johnsoils Site Sponsor

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    The AMSOIL 15W-40 Heavy Duty Marine is an excellent oil. I know a dealer that has a customer with an over-the-road truck that has over 700,000-miles without an oil change. The customer is using the AMSOIL oil analysis program, Donaldson filters and the AMSOIL bypass filter system.

    Last I knew he was changing the full-flow filter every 25,000-miles and pulling a sample. The bypass filter is changed every other full-flow change (50,000-miles).

    When he traded in his old Mack truck, AMSOIL contacted him about tearing it down to measure the wear and to do an internal inspection. This engine had 409,000-miles without and oil change on the AMSOIL 15W-40.

    If anyone would like a DVD on this tear down, let me know. A third-party evaluator witnessed the tear-down and said that all the parts could go back into the engine. You can still see the cross-hatching in the cylinder liners.
     
  16. IH270A

    IH270A Active Member

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    is this oil similar to the oils and additives that david visor talks about in his articles , if I am not mistaken he was using what they call ACES , additive , does AMSOIL oil contain this ?
     
  17. Johnsoils

    Johnsoils Site Sponsor

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    I'm not familiar with the ACES product line. I did search and found them on the web. Interesting?? I'll let you know if I run across any of their customers at the trade-shows were I set up my booth. I do several farming shows, motorsports shows and general trade shows. Some someone is bound to ask me or tell me about ACES products.

    Thanks for the information, and sorry I can't answer your question right now. I will have to contact the AMSOIL tech department to see if they have any information on ACES or their products. I will gladly do this for you.
     
  18. joeeye59

    joeeye59 Senior Member

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    I use the Amsoil on the engine for my backhoe. I know from calling the prior owner he used a Castrol non-synthetic engine oil putting 8900 hours on the engine.... So like I've been saying its running pretty decent for 9K hours on the engine.... So I'd like to do the oil sample testing like you mentioned above..... Can you shed some light about doing that? thanks...
     
  19. tuney443

    tuney443 Senior Member

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    I don't know about Amsoil{never really liked their thinking of not getting their products rated},but I learned a long time ago that as long as you use the right specd.hydraulic oil for your rig,you'd be fine.I put over 5K hours on my 510B with a brand X type generic oil--never had problems and saved considerable green not buying Hy-gard.
     
  20. Deerehauler

    Deerehauler Well-Known Member

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    On a 310C there are actually two hydraulic pumps--one is a charge pump inside the transmission case that sucks oil out of the sump and povides oil to the main hydraulic pump, located in front of the engine. The charge pump is a georotor pump that only puts out 180 psi. This one also helps send part of the oil through the hydraulic filter.

    The main hydraulic pump is a 8 piston closed center pump and is similar in design to main hydraulic pumps used on Deere tractors from the 1960s to the late 1990s. Most of these pumps have a very fine screen in the inlet section of the MHP which protects this pump, and the charge pump is protected by a sump screen. The oil filter(s) do a great job of catching any junk floating around. If I remember right, 310Cs use a cannister type filter, that is, you remove a filter cover with a 3/4" wrench, replace the filter element, and reinstall the cover. If you are worried about iron, go to a veterinary clinic and get some hardware magnets for dairy cattle. These magnets are about 1/2 diameter and 3" long and are VERY strong. They are used to protect dairy cows GI tract from small pieces of wire they might eat with their hay. Install the magnets on the filter and run the filter for a month. Remove the filter and look at the magnets--if there is ANY iron floating around these magnets will catch it.

    Typically the hydraulic performance will be MAJORLY degraded before a pump rebuild will be required. The hydraulics will seem to have pretty good flow but will not develop pressure like before. In a closed center system, the main hydraulic pump determines the pressure available for the backhoe. When the output check valves begin to fail, the pump simply will not be able to generate the pressure needed to do the job. Occasionally you can hear/feel a slight chattering noise in the hydraulics, especially when the oil is HOT, not COLD.

    Most of the time iron in the hydraulics comes from the brakes. If the hydraulic system has ever had moisture in it or had cheap oil (COOP HTB comes to mind) the brake shoes will degrade and allow metal to metal contact between the brake discs and the backing plate, which will send LOTS of little cast iron particles though the system.

    An oil scan would be a good idea, but you need to do several of them to get a good baseline established. I highly recommend HY-GARD oil.