• Thank you for visiting HeavyEquipmentForums.com! Our objective is to provide industry professionals a place to gather to exchange questions, answers and ideas. We welcome you to register using the "Register" icon at the top of the page. We'd appreciate any help you can offer in spreading the word of our new site. The more members that join, the bigger resource for all to enjoy. Thank you!

Insley 875 Detroit diesel water down exhaust.

paulk

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2017
Messages
10
Location
Ravenna, MI
Occupation
Business Owner
Brand new member here, so hoping for some help. I bought a house and 120 acres in Michigan and on the property was a 1974 Insley 875 excavator with a 4 cylinder detroit diesel. The PO had dug a pond with it but it hadn't been used for a couple of years. I charged and installed the battery to see if it would crank over, but it appears locked up. I looked down the exhaust where the flap didnt sit too well and saw water in the muffler. I pulled the exhaust manifold the valve cover and 4 small rectangular covers off the side of the engine. One of the cylinders had the exhaust valves open and there is some rust in there that I can see. The side cover appears to be an air intake thing..? I can see what looks to be the piston top at about half way up some small slots that appear to be in the cylinder liner...? again, pardon my ignorance.
I dont see any water or rust in the other 3 cylinders. I sprayed a bunch of WD40 down the exhaust valve area, which runs down to the top of the piston, out the small slots and then into the cavity that is where you see through the square covers and drains out a small tube at the bottom of the motor. I am hoping that since the engine was in this position, that since the water had a place to drain that I may be able to free it up with penetrating oil. I read that this is a positive earth unit, so that is how I hooked the battery up (praying that was right.) Any thoughts or input / suggestions are greatly appreciated. I will post pics soon. Thanks!
 
Last edited:

old-iron-habit

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2012
Messages
4,233
Location
Moose Lake, MN
Occupation
Retired Cons't. Supt./Hospitals
The water should have ended up in the blower if it was below the top of the intake ports. The blower has two machines vanes that rotate and push air into the engine. They do not pump water. Pull the blower off and get the moisture out before you turn it over. Being you are in Michigan there is a good chance that you already have a broken vane in the blower from water freezing in there. That can easily lock it up. I had a broken vane in one of mine a couple months ago. It had a rain cap but we had a60 MPH wind from the wrong direction and the rain cap lifted. Happened to two machines that day but I used the other one before winter and was able to get the water out by pulling injectors on that one. I always turn a Detroit over with a socket on the flywheel nut on the crankshaft under the fan. Go at least 1 full turn before hitting the starter when they have set for some time. My old logging machine with Detroit's all have negative grounds. Never had a Insley so can't speak to that one. Its not to complicated of a job to pull the blower if you have some decent mechanical knowledge. A blower install gasket set is only $20.00 or so. Parts are over the counter in Duluth so you should be able to them there.

Edit: Did you ask the PO if the engine had previous issues. Just thinking that's why it was left behind. Not a bad looking old machine. I always thought a Insley would be kind of cool to have in the stable.
 

paulk

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2017
Messages
10
Location
Ravenna, MI
Occupation
Business Owner
The water should have ended up in the blower if it was below the top of the intake ports. The blower has two machines vanes that rotate and push air into the engine. They do not pump water. Pull the blower off and get the moisture out before you turn it over. Being you are in Michigan there is a good chance that you already have a broken vane in the blower from water freezing in there. That can easily lock it up. I had a broken vane in one of mine a couple months ago. It had a rain cap but we had a60 MPH wind from the wrong direction and the rain cap lifted. Happened to two machines that day but I used the other one before winter and was able to get the water out by pulling injectors on that one. I always turn a Detroit over with a socket on the flywheel nut on the crankshaft under the fan. Go at least 1 full turn before hitting the starter when they have set for some time. My old logging machine with Detroit's all have negative grounds. Never had a Insley so can't speak to that one. Its not to complicated of a job to pull the blower if you have some decent mechanical knowledge. A blower install gasket set is only $20.00 or so. Parts are over the counter in Duluth so you should be able to them there.

Edit: Did you ask the PO if the engine had previous issues. Just thinking that's why it was left behind. Not a bad looking old machine. I always thought a Insley would be kind of cool to have in the stable.

The PO said it ran a few years ago and didn't say it was locked up at all. I am confused as to how the water could get into the blower. Do those slots go through to the other side as well? The exhaust and the covers I took off are on the opposite side of the engine. I don't believe the cylinders are full (but I cant prove that at this point, I guess. I am planning to take a breaker bar to it next, probably should have done that to start with. The oil looks clean with no water apparent in it. I can pull the blower and I hope that is not junk! Was hoping to get lucky and have it turn over, but my Detroit needs a resurrection on Easter!
 

paulk

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2017
Messages
10
Location
Ravenna, MI
Occupation
Business Owner
I will try to pull the blower this week and see what that looks like. Is there any way to check or test it if it visually doesn't look cracked? How expensive are they to replace? I assume I can get a used one from Valley Truck parts which is nearby...
 

old-iron-habit

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2012
Messages
4,233
Location
Moose Lake, MN
Occupation
Retired Cons't. Supt./Hospitals
I will try to pull the blower this week and see what that looks like. Is there any way to check or test it if it visually doesn't look cracked? How expensive are they to replace? I assume I can get a used one from Valley Truck parts which is nearby...

You may see a broken vane if you pull off the outer cover on the blower. It will have the air intake hose attached to it. It may well have the emergency shutoff in the cover but its all self contained. 4 bolts I think. You also may not see the water or a broken vane as they are usually on the bottom where the ice was. Do you know what engine you have? Count the exhaust ports for cylinder count and see if the valve covers have 2 top big knob screws or if it is fastened around the edges with small screws. Top screw knobs are 71 series, Around the edge valve cover screws will be a 53 series engine. The engine type will the number of cylinders first and then the series number. i/e 3-53, 4-53, 3-71, 4-71, 6-71 etc. If you have a broken vane, they can often be rebuilt a lot cheaper than buying a new one. E-bay also has rebuilt one quite often. My 3-53 blower cost about $350.00 for a rebuild including the install gasket kit. There are a number of Detroit problem solving threads on the board here. You may do a search at the top of the page and pick thru them and learn a bit about that engine. There are some smart folks that have posted to them and will probably be along to help out here.
 

old-iron-habit

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2012
Messages
4,233
Location
Moose Lake, MN
Occupation
Retired Cons't. Supt./Hospitals
The PO said it ran a few years ago and didn't say it was locked up at all. I am confused as to how the water could get into the blower. Do those slots go through to the other side as well? The exhaust and the covers I took off are on the opposite side of the engine. I don't believe the cylinders are full (but I cant prove that at this point, I guess. I am planning to take a breaker bar to it next, probably should have done that to start with. The oil looks clean with no water apparent in it. I can pull the blower and I hope that is not junk! Was hoping to get lucky and have it turn over, but my Detroit needs a resurrection on Easter!

Don't force it to hard. Try turning both ways and then pull the blower before you go to far. Mine would turn a part turn in either direction and then bind. As long as you have the valve covers off see if you can open the valves with a bar or whatever you can rig up to push down on them. Make sure there are no stuck ones. Better to go slow and not do any serious damage.
 

old-iron-habit

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2012
Messages
4,233
Location
Moose Lake, MN
Occupation
Retired Cons't. Supt./Hospitals
In answer to your question about the ports. Yes they are on both sides, The blower forces the air around the cylinders and into the cylinder when the pistons are down. These are two stroke engines as they fire on every stroke. And they are made to run flat wide open when working and they do scream. They sound like they will explode any second. That's why they are called Screaming Jimmy's. You will want good ear plugs. Most folks either love them or hate them. I have a fond affliction for them. All of the valves are exhaust valves. The ports are used in lieu of intake valves. Does yours have two or 4 valves per cylinder?
 

paulk

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2017
Messages
10
Location
Ravenna, MI
Occupation
Business Owner
It has 2 valves per cylinder I believe. I have zero experience with Diesels but lots of mechanical experience. Looks like I will gain some diesel experience over the coming months. I would like to dig another pond eventually. Thanks for the input, I really appreciate having someone who can give me good input. I have a hundred projects going all the time but hopefully I can get the blower off and see what the next step is.
 

paulk

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2017
Messages
10
Location
Ravenna, MI
Occupation
Business Owner
You may see a broken vane if you pull off the outer cover on the blower. It will have the air intake hose attached to it. It may well have the emergency shutoff in the cover but its all self contained. 4 bolts I think. You also may not see the water or a broken vane as they are usually on the bottom where the ice was. Do you know what engine you have? Count the exhaust ports for cylinder count and see if the valve covers have 2 top big knob screws or if it is fastened around the edges with small screws. Top screw knobs are 71 series, Around the edge valve cover screws will be a 53 series engine. The engine type will the number of cylinders first and then the series number. i/e 3-53, 4-53, 3-71, 4-71, 6-71 etc. If you have a broken vane, they can often be rebuilt a lot cheaper than buying a new one. E-bay also has rebuilt one quite often. My 3-53 blower cost about $350.00 for a rebuild including the install gasket kit. There are a number of Detroit problem solving threads on the board here. You may do a search at the top of the page and pick thru them and learn a bit about that engine. There are some smart folks that have posted to them and will probably be along to help out here.
The valve cover has two big knobs that hold it. O pulled that off and all is very nice looking in there. The tag is hard to read but looks like it says 4055-N. does that make any sense?
 

old-iron-habit

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2012
Messages
4,233
Location
Moose Lake, MN
Occupation
Retired Cons't. Supt./Hospitals
That's a 4-71. Do not pull the injectors at this point. They are best left alone to save some work unless we figure out down the road that they have issues. They normally survive a sit just fine. I think the number 4055-N refers to the injector size that was installed but not real
It has 2 valves per cylinder I believe. I have zero experience with Diesels but lots of mechanical experience. Looks like I will gain some diesel experience over the coming months. I would like to dig another pond eventually. Thanks for the input, I really appreciate having someone who can give me good input. I have a hundred projects going all the time but hopefully I can get the blower off and see what the next step is.

sure.

I sold a running two valve 4-71 power unit to Northern Engine in Duluth about 6 to 8 months ago. They wanted the Twin Disc clutch off of it. It ran great but was getting weak. They probably still have it if you end up needing a blower, radiator, or something else. The two valve engines are not in much demand anymore.
 

Delmer

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Messages
8,865
Location
WI
So the starter clicked but didn't turn and that is all the evidence you have that the engine is locked up? Or is there more?

I would pull the starter. First to check that the starter itself spins under power. Second to see if the flywheel will rotate in either direction with moderate pressure from a pry bar on the ring gear teeth.

Also, loosen the engine oil pan drain plug and let it drip until there's no more water coming out. Hopefully the water is not green, and the radiator has visible coolant in it still.
 

Scrub Puller

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2009
Messages
3,481
Location
Gladstone Queensland Australia
Yair . . . .
Make sure the rack moves freely and, as always with these old darlings, on a first start after a long lay up make sure you have some ply or deal board handy and the air intake accessible . . . it can be quite exciting if they try to run away.

These engines are particular about the oil they like and I am sure some of the US folks will chime in with the current information.

Cheers.
 

kshansen

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2012
Messages
11,129
Location
Central New York, USA
Occupation
Retired Mechanic in Stone Quarry
Not sure what I did, guess I forgot to click on "Post Reply" this should have been posted about 6:00pm last night.

I would agree with old-iron on the idea of pulling the blower or at the very least the intake cover that bolts to it to see what the insides look like. Any chance of a couple or more pictures of the engine from different angles. That would help us give suggestions on what to check. We could circle things to help explain much better than trying to do it all in words. Actually if you could

I would not even try tuning the engine by hand until we are sure the blower is free to turn.

Not saying it is impossible for it to have a a positive "earth" but would be a little rare for a mid 1970's machine. I'm guessing you might come from a British back ground as to use the term "earth" is not common in the US.

Might be worth looking at what this thing has for a charging system, that might give a hint as to the polarity of things.

Just for general info. This is a two stroke diesel only valves are exhausts and the air as you guessed get in through those slots in the side of the cylinders.

Even if you did get it to turn DO NOT attempt to start without some more information. There are a few basic things you should do but will wait to explain them till you check the first stuff out first. Don't want to get you confused with too many things right off.
 

kshansen

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2012
Messages
11,129
Location
Central New York, USA
Occupation
Retired Mechanic in Stone Quarry
I'll repeat a couple things I thought I posted last night, sorry about the screw-up!

A few pictures of the engine as best as you can will help with pointing out things.

Also don't worry about much of anything till you are able to turn it over a couple turns by hand fairly easy.

Almost hate to say it but I know where there is a 4-71 that has been just sitting unused for many years that the company that owns it thinks it is worth way too much. Probably only a few hundred hours on it after a total rebuild and upgrade to a four valve head.
 

paulk

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2017
Messages
10
Location
Ravenna, MI
Occupation
Business Owner
So the starter clicked but didn't turn and that is all the evidence you have that the engine is locked up? Or is there more?

I would pull the starter. First to check that the starter itself spins under power. Second to see if the flywheel will rotate in either direction with moderate pressure from a pry bar on the ring gear teeth.

Also, loosen the engine oil pan drain plug and let it drip until there's no more water coming out. Hopefully the water is not green, and the radiator has visible coolant in it still.
I tried using a pry bar and couldn't get it to move, Starter is good. There doesn't seem to be any water in the oil at all, looks perfect. The PO said there was a radiator leak so he would fill it with water whenever he used it and drained it each fall.
 

paulk

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2017
Messages
10
Location
Ravenna, MI
Occupation
Business Owner
I'll repeat a couple things I thought I posted last night, sorry about the screw-up!

A few pictures of the engine as best as you can will help with pointing out things.

Also don't worry about much of anything till you are able to turn it over a couple turns by hand fairly easy.

Almost hate to say it but I know where there is a 4-71 that has been just sitting unused for many years that the company that owns it thinks it is worth way too much. Probably only a few hundred hours on it after a total rebuild and upgrade to a four valve head.
I wil try
I tried using a pry bar and couldn't get it to move, Starter is good. There doesn't seem to be any water in the oil at all, looks perfect. The PO said there was a radiator leak so he would fill it with water whenever he used it and drained it each fall.
I will try to get some pics of the engine this weekend and post them. If the weather permits I may trt to pull the cover or the entire blower to see if that is where the problem is.
 

paulk

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2017
Messages
10
Location
Ravenna, MI
Occupation
Business Owner
Not sure what I did, guess I forgot to click on "Post Reply" this should have been posted about 6:00pm last night.

I would agree with old-iron on the idea of pulling the blower or at the very least the intake cover that bolts to it to see what the insides look like. Any chance of a couple or more pictures of the engine from different angles. That would help us give suggestions on what to check. We could circle things to help explain much better than trying to do it all in words. Actually if you could

I would not even try tuning the engine by hand until we are sure the blower is free to turn.

Not saying it is impossible for it to have a a positive "earth" but would be a little rare for a mid 1970's machine. I'm guessing you might come from a British back ground as to use the term "earth" is not common in the US.

Might be worth looking at what this thing has for a charging system, that might give a hint as to the polarity of things.

Just for general info. This is a two stroke diesel only valves are exhausts and the air as you guessed get in through those slots in the side of the cylinders.

Even if you did get it to turn DO NOT attempt to start without some more information. There are a few basic things you should do but will wait to explain them till you check the first stuff out first. Don't want to get you confused with too many things right off.
I really appreciate everyone's patience and help! I am actually born and raised in Michigan, but the insley manual used the term "Positive Earth" so I used it so as not to sound any more ignorant than I am. I will get photos of the electrical system as well. There is not a lot of wiring to it really. The two large cables that connect to the battery both go over to the starter, one to the bendix and the other to the front of the starter. Thanks again for the help! I will post pics soon. P
 

Delmer

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Messages
8,865
Location
WI
You tried a pry bar WHERE? and what does the starter do that makes it good? It's obviously not cranking, right?

Just because the manual says it's positive ground/earth, doesn't mean it still is.
 

kshansen

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2012
Messages
11,129
Location
Central New York, USA
Occupation
Retired Mechanic in Stone Quarry
You tried a pry bar WHERE? and what does the starter do that makes it good? It's obviously not cranking, right?

I would not be hitting the starter until after I had the engine turning over a couple complete turns by hand. Starter can put out enough torque to bend a rod.

Just because the manual says it's positive ground/earth, doesn't mean it still is.
That is very true, I have been guilty myself of re-engineering more than one electrical system in the past. Like converting a 12/24 volt positive ground Mack to a straight 12 volt negative ground system!
 
Top