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I Need A Reality Check. Big Lift With Old Crane.

alskdjfhg

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Jun 21, 2015
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405
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Houston TX
Ok, well big by my standards.

I might need to unload a planer that weights around 40,000lbs. Unknown exact weight, that's just an educated guess. If anything it'll be less, highly doubt it weighs more than 40k.

I'd be doing it with a 1970's P&H 440TC. 40 ton friction truck crane.

The planer is 9' tall, 28' long and 8' wide, again these arent exact, but close enough for our purposes.

The planer should have holes case through the bed so I can run a rod through, using endless slings it should be very easy rigging. And I can move the table of the machine to act as load balancing.

The machine will probably be coming on a step deck, I'm thinking back the trailer up as close to the outriggers as I can, use only a 40' boom and rig the block for a full 80,000 lbs.

I've forgotten the outrigger stance, but I think 12' load center would put the hook about at the center of a trailer. Even if it's a few feet out I've still got plenty of chart, at 15' I got 70k.

I've never picked up anything close to this heavy with this crane. And I'm worried about the clutches and brakes holding. 40,000lbs on 7 parts of line (the block rigged for a full 40 tons), is 5800lbs per line right?

So I'm wondering if picking up 5800lbs on a single part line and seeing if the clutches and brakes hold would be an accurate test?

Lots of words, I hope I didn't lose anyone.

I've attached pictures of a slightly smaller planer so you get an idea of what the machine looks like, a picture of the P&H and a picture of it's load chart.

If you open the image of the load chart in a new tab and zoom in you can read the numbers.

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Knepptune

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Nov 22, 2012
Messages
757
Location
Indiana
Can you dog the boom hoist. I'd worry more about those clutches holding then the hoist clutch. What is the cranes max single line pull. I wouldn't get real close to that. I would pull 6200 or so on single line for a test. And let it sit for 15-20 min.

Can you lift it straight up and drive the truck away. I would do that and then keep it 6" or so off the ground while positioning it.

40k is a serious lift with a 40t crane.
 

lumberjack

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Dec 24, 2011
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Columbus, MS
I would think you could test both the hoist and boom clutches... hoist by having a higher line pull than what the load will produce (maybe 1.25x as a minimum) and the boom by booming a load out that puts a greater moment on the boom clutch than the steeper boom angle.

Sure feels like a lack of confidence in the equipment. I'm new to cranes but to me a 40klb minimum radius pick is no big deal with a 40T crane, if you trust the crane to live to its chart.
 

alskdjfhg

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2015
Messages
405
Location
Houston TX
Yeah I can dog the boom hoist. Knepptune that's exactly how I was gonna lift it. Lift off the trailer, drive trailer out, lower machine, swing to line up with door. Then rig the machine in the shop Egyptian style.

I want to say the line pull is 12,500lbs. I'll have to double check, it's been a while since I looked.

I think the crane can do it, but past experience with tired equipment means I don't trust it much more than I can throw it. The crane's in decent shape, but it's been sitting for a long time and it is old.

I trust the chart, what I don't trust it the old cable, the old clutches and the old brakes. I did get this thing at Ritchie Bros for $3,000.....
 
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lumberjack

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Dec 24, 2011
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Taking 80klb on 7 parts of line (rigging the block for 40T) would imply 11428lb per part removing friction from the equation.

I said trust the crane to live [up] to its chart.... I don't think your skepticism or wanting to do some testing/verifying is a bad idea. :cool:
 

lantraxco

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Jan 1, 2009
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Elsewhen
A) Have the trucker scale it, then you'll know. B) I don't think it's anywhere near 40K as the rollback it's on isn't even beginning to hunker down on the springs or tires. I recently hoisted a 10K plus lathe off a trailer inside my shop with a 4K hoist and a supposedly 6K hoist... getting it up was no problem, but thinking about the three foot trip to the concrete slab made me nervous so I cribbed up both ends and lowered the machine one block height at a time, four to six inches... the holding clutches on both hoists were wanting to run away but it couldn't get much speed up in a few inches. Something to think about?
 

crane operator

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Mar 27, 2009
Messages
8,275
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sw missouri
Lantraxco- I don't think the planer in the pictures is the one he's unloading, this new one is bigger.

If your planer is 28' long, its probably not going to come in, setting right on the tail of the trailer. Its going to be centered on the trailer. Your going to get closest to the center of the planer by actually backing the truck up, right to the door of the building you want to put it into.

Place the crane right beside the trailer, either the back bumper right on the edge of the trailer, or the outrigger jacks right on the trailer, with your center pin centered on the load.

Then you end up with 12' from center pin (rotation) to the outriggers + 5' or so to the center of the planer. If you back the trailer up to you, you have 12' of crane, +5' of trailer that's empty, + 14' of planer (1/2 of the 28').

By setting beside the trailer, you're under 20' of radius. If you try to pick from the end, you're at 31' radius.

I'm new to cranes but to me a 40klb minimum radius pick is no big deal with a 40T crane, if you trust the crane to live to its chart.

That's the problem, you really can't get to a minimum radius pick. You really can't pick up 40 ton with a 40 ton crane. If you're offloading something that weighs 40 tons, you really need about a 100 ton crane. As Knepptune pointed out, a 40k pick with a 40 ton crane, does get you right up to chart. Minimum Chart / max capacity is typically at 10' radius. As we've seen with this pick here, we're not at 10' (10' is at the center of the jacks), we're knocking the door on 20' radius.

Looks like 20' radius is 54,000, which is a pretty good capacity, but that's where a lattice boom shines. ( Just for reference my 70 ton hydro is only good for 67,000 at 20').

Here's a picture of some factory machinery we just unloaded. I've backed the trailer right to the door, I'm just going to pick the machine straight up, pull the truck out, and set it down. Then they'll push it with a forklift with either skates or pipes into the building. You can actually get closer than I am, I've still got my rear tag axle on. This machine was only 16,000 or so, so I wasn't really worried about it. If I'm up around 40k, I will back the trailer 6" off the outriggers, or 6" off the back bumper. The last picture, you can see the lowboy I just unloaded, I've backed him parallel to the crane, tight to the jacks, until the load was centered between my outriggers, then swung over the rear to set it.

If I was worried about the crane, I'd do like knepptune says, and dog the boom, make sure to account for a little boom deflection (dog it off about 6" to 1' closer to you from center before cabling up, the load will center you up). Then when you winch up on the load, get almost light off the trailer (you'll see the trailer coming up off the bags, and one end will get off the trailer first). You can leave some chains on it loose, so it doesn't spin on the trailer if you have to set it back down. When its almost up, try to hold it with the winch brake.

It either will hold it, or won't. If the brake is squalling and not holding, you can just set it back down and come up with plan B.

If you've got 10,000 of line pull, I'd probably run 6 parts of line, I wouldn't run just 4.

I wouldn't want to judge your cable condition, you could post up some pictures, but if its real rusty, and has set around a long time outdoors, that would be a big concern. No way would I use it if it has broken wires anywhere in the running lines. If the core has broken down I wouldn't chance it. One other thing that I wouldn't be sure of, is your outrigger jack seals. A jack failure will ruin your day. But really everything on the crane should get looked over- by someone who knows what to look for.

If you lose it (the load) you're going to be out your planer, your crane, maybe part of the building, and you're going to have to buy the trucker a new truck and trailer. And that's best case, if someone gets hurt, you'll live with that the rest of your life, to say nothing of the financial implications.

I would consider a 40,000 lb pick, a pretty heavy lift with my tms300. But I use that crane all the time, its within chart, on a well maintained, every day use, crane. I probably wouldn't come to your yard and use your crane, just from what I've read of your history with the rig (which is really no history).

In my area you could get that unloaded for around a $1,000, probably less, if not too much driving time. You can't begin to make your crane pass a good inspection for that kind of $. And I would give it that kind of a look over myself, if I was using it. If it won't pass a inspection, it won't pass my eyeball either.

That said, I use a mid 70's crane everyday to do work like that. It was designed to do, what you want it to do. The question is it still up to the task, given its neglect over time. A lathe with the ways all chewed up, won't hold a tolerance either, nor would you expect it too. Is it worth spending the $ to make the crane usable?

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20170419_092910.jpg
 

alskdjfhg

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Location
Houston TX
Lantraxco; No that's not the machine I might be moving. That one only weights 24,800. But it should be very similar just 40% smaller and half as heavy.

Thanks Crane OP.

Your 100% right. The planer would be coming out of Celevlend Ohio, after I drive up there and spend a week rigging it and then have it hauled 1300 miles to the farm. And the kicker is I'm not the guy paying for all this, it's a fiend of mine who wants to save it and since he has no room we'll set it up in my shop. I'd hate to go to all the work of getting down to the farm and then drop it.....

I do trust the crane for certain stuff. Lifting 10,000 when the chart says I can do 40,000 with the block over reeved lifting 6" over dirt with no time pressure and nobody around.

Lifting 40,000 when the chart says I can do 54,000 is a whole nother ball game when this crane isn't like yours. It's been a back burner project so it's still showing signs of the neglect it had.

The cable isn't frayed, but it's rusty and I don't trust it.

Last thing in the world I want to do is this;

That was a 97% capacity lift though.

Plan B is too use a Landoll to suck the planer off the step deck then use the Landoll to place the big planer in the shop.
 

check

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The cable isn't frayed, but it's rusty and I don't trust it.
I would undo the dead end of the cable, cut 20 to 40 feet off and re-terminate it so you can inspect the inner core. When it comes to rust, the inner core is where the problems start.
 

crane operator

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Just for a little more perspective, if you had to put new cable on the crane, that's two drums of probably 3/4" cable 500' each. $3- $4 a foot. Then another $1,000 for new rigging to make the pick with also. $500 for a inspection and I won't bring up insurance.

I do trust the crane for certain stuff. Lifting 10,000 when the chart says I can do 40,000 with the block over reeved lifting 6" over dirt with no time pressure and nobody around.
.

I think that's a great use of the old girl. Picking your own stuff when the consequences are only yours, in a big open field.

Picking up someone else's stuff, on top of another guys truck and trailer, when pushing chart with no insurance, and a not very well known/ maintained crane. That's a chain of events I'd avoid if I could.
 

fast_st

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Wind on some new cable then you won't have any worries for a while! scrap or sell the old cable.
 

alskdjfhg

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Jun 21, 2015
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Houston TX
Ive priced new cable for the old boat anchor.

Even though every once in a while could see myself pushing the chart like now. Im afraid the number of times I need to do that don't justify the expense. I want to do it though, I'm just not sure the crane is worth it.

The money should probably be saved for a nicer hydrualic truck crane. I doubt this old girl is worth more than scrap and will probably live out the rest of her days making very light lifts in the yard.

I'm still going to try and move it to the shop here soon, have to brake the boom down to do so. And ill be unloading a lathe that weights 27,000lbs with it. But ill probably make it a tandem lift with the forklift. A little more complicated rigging, but lighter load on the crane.

Reason the crane was purchased was so we could build the big shop.
 
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Hobbytime

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Sep 21, 2016
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too bad you cant find an old scrap truck or piece of equipment to test the cable, so if it broke their would be no loss financially and no one would get hurt..
 

crane operator

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too bad you cant find an old scrap truck or piece of equipment to test the cable, so if it broke their would be no loss financially and no one would get hurt..

If his boom hoist cable goes, test pic or not, his boom will be scrap. If the load line goes with tension on it, he'll be lucky if its not in the cab with him when it gets done snaking around. Parting steel cables is no fun.
 

Hobbytime

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If his boom hoist cable goes, test pic or not, his boom will be scrap. If the load line goes with tension on it, he'll be lucky if its not in the cab with him when it gets done snaking around. Parting steel cables is no fun.
Ah, gotcha...either way its gona be $$$$$$
 

td25c

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Feb 14, 2009
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indiana
Nope never did.

Yeah alsk , you need to round up or build some pads for the P&H .

I think you got a pretty good rig that has great potential given you take care & maintain it Bro .

You got a good deal buying it , now got to spend a little cash on maintenance .

Not a big deal , take your time with it & do it in stages as time & cash flow allow .

Stay the course & be diligent about it .:)

We pulled " Old Roy " out of the shed to go dip out a few ponds the excavator won't reach .

1953 vintage , nothing major wrong . Just a long grocery list of this & that to do to it along with cable replacement .http://www.heavytruckforums.com/showthread.php?527-Available-Manufacturing-Company

We just throw wood cribbing under " Old Roy" . He's happy with that & good for 24,000 in ten feet .

All my cranes start the load chart 4 foot outside the outrigger pattern . Old school load chart .The boys were pretty sharp doing that as more than often a load comes in on an 8 foot wide truck or trailer .:)
 
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