Genie S60

[willie59]

Well, good thing about those type ignition coils, even if it turns out coil wasn't problem, it didn't cost you a pile of money to find out.

 

[M1687]

Well, I picked up a new coil and decided to search around for a new ignition module while I was at it. Seems like a 1980 Ford Pinto will get you some parts you need for this machine at the local auto parts stores. I just hooked everything back up this morning and it fired right up. I'm not so sure my coil was the issue after seeing some of the other specs for coils on the internet. I could never find the actual ohms resistance spec for this application but I didn't look too hard. I took the ignition module and had it tested and it turned out to be bad. As I mention a 1980 Ford Pinto with a manual trans found me the replacement I needed.
After getting all excited about my machine runnning again, I went to turn the key off and nothing happened. I then hit the stop button and nothing happened. The engine kept running. lol I'm not sure if the 20 some degree/blowing snow had anything to do with it. I eventually kept playing around with the stop buttons on both the platform and the basket and it eventually shut off. Looks like I have another new project to investigate? lol

 

[HD21A]

Jason I have your machine schematic bookmarked, but I havent looked at it yet. The shut off problem could be a relay sticking problem. I don't know if the shut offs control an ignition relay circuit which would close a relay which puts voltage to the coil, ect. I had a sticky burnt relay contact on the relay that controlled the electric fuel pump , didn't know it until I tried to start it a week later and the battery was dead. Disconnected battery cables, recharged, as I replaced cables , ignition off, I could something click and a pump run. The machine would start up, run perfect, shut off. Take cable off , would hear a click, back on , pump would cycle. Also noticed with engine in off mode , electric water temperature gauge was reading 110 degrees. Disconnect battery, Gauge would go to cold side against pin, reconnect, 110 degrees. Got the schematics out, found one of the 4 small relays controlled the fuel pump relay which fed 12volts to energize the fuel pump relay. Took a screw driver and tapped on the relay case, reconnected battery cable, no click, no pump running, water temp cold. Restarted engine, everything fine, shut off, water temp back to resting position. Ordered 4 new relays and now have 3 used spares. Something for you to think about. Good evening to stay inside and read, 15 degrees and about 2 in of snow. Bob Chillicothe

 

[M1687]

Thanks for the input Bob. I didn't have a lot of time today to investigate. I was just thrilled to get it running again then I had to be somewhere else. It seems like the few times I started and tried to stop it there was a long delay before it actually killed the engine. So a sticky relay sounds like a good candidate. I'm wondering if this problem has anything to do with my faulty ignition module (electrical surge?). I'll have to look at the diagram too.
I don't have an electrical fuel pump on this model just the old fashion kind that runs off a cam etc. I'm sure it was a challenge for you to find that bad relay. Looks like winter showed up again for us northerners. I have to do some rearranging of my pole barn to get this lift inside. The wind is always the worst part of winter.

 

[willie59]

Could be power relay 1 (PR1) sticking, or time delay relay 2 (TR2) is faulty. Try switch PR1 with PR3 (aux power relay), and switch TR2 with TR1 (traction delay relay) and see if it does it again.

 

[Small Block]

I'm watching very intently. New here to the site and for some reason i cant post a new thread so dont think i'm hijacking this one. I've also got an S 60 with issues. It's a model 2017. Been told it's a 97 model. I do have questions as i'm down till i get her running and it's on the job. First post so i may be limited on starting a thread until my post count goes up. Here in West Plains, Mo if anyone is close and has a clue on these units. Email addy is wmns@centurytel.net. Thanks guys. Great siet.
Small Block

 

[HD21A]

Hello Come right on in and ask some questions. Mine is a 1999 S-65, ran for a year before an engine sensor problem made it sick. Solved the problem and with the projected warm weather coming, might do some this old house work this week. I live in Southern Ohio. What 's the problem Bob Chillicothe

 

[willie59]

Welcome to the forum Small Block.

You can't start a thread as a probationary member. Once you make 3 posts to forum in any section, except TGIF, your status will be changed to Junior Member and you can start threads.

 

[M1687]

Could be power relay 1 (PR1) sticking, or time delay relay 2 (TR2) is faulty. Try switch PR1 with PR3 (aux power relay), and switch TR2 with TR1 (traction delay relay) and see if it does it again.

Willie,
I found PR1 and TR2 on the schematic. Where are they located on the machine? Are these the relays on the back side of the engine compartment? Or are they located in the box?

 

[VoodooMojo]

TR1 is located inside the lower control box near the bottom left. TR2 is in the upper left corner of the lower control box.
They are flat, square components about an inch and a half square with three or four male spades on them.

PR1 is the relay near the center of the relay panel on the engine side of the machine.
It will have a Tan #51 wire on it.

 

[willie59]

Look in your service manual. Page 6-5 shows TR1 and TR2 inside the lower control box. Page 6-6 shows PR1 and PR3 on lower relay panel, I'm guessing in engine compartment.

Ahh, it appears Voodoo has beat me to it.

 

[VoodooMojo]

Yes it is in the engine compartment on the relay board.
It is the canister type between the Precision Governor and the Voltage Regulator.

 

[M1687]

Thanks Voodoo and Willie!!!

 

[VoodooMojo]

You may want to check to see if there is still voltage at the Fuel Shut-off Valve when the E-Stops have been turned off. The e-stop will cut power to CR4, removing power to the fuel select switch and therefore the fuel shut-off valve. This is what actually turns off the engine. Starving it of gasoline.
As long as there is oil pressure, the ignition circuit will be activated through CR3 and PR1.
So PR1 will be activated until CR3 is turned ON by the Ground signal from the Oil Pressure Sending Unit when the engine stops. At that time, CR3's Normally Closed contacts will open to shut off PR1 and kill the Ignition.

A characteristic of the Zenith Carburetor back in the day, with this method of shut-down, was the tendency to keep running on.
It was caused usually by one of two things:

Engine RPM too high at shut-down was one.
As the engine rpm begins to drop at shut-down, the vacuum will decrease enough to permit the accelerator pump to unload its gas into the ventura. This will keep the engine running long enough to keep the oil pressure up enough to keep CR3 from opening to shut off PR1.
At the same time, the accelerator pump reloads so when the small amount of fuel it pumped into the ventura its last stroke burns off and engine rpm decreases, the accelerator pump will again discharge into the ventura, keeping the engine alive. This cycle can repeat itself until the carburetor bowl runs dry. With a fast rpm, the oil pressure stays higher longer facilitating this run-on.

Another issue that contributes to the run-on is the spring in the accelerator pump has weakened, allowing for less of a difference in vacuum to cause the accelerator pump to keep the engine alive.
Inside the accelerator pump is an aluminum slug about the diameter of a nickel, a spring and a diaphram. Many times, a same diameter flat washer inserted between the slug and cover would assist the spring pressure enough to stop the engine from running on after shut-down. Stretching the spring would also, but only temporarily, achieve the same result. If the washer is too thick, the engine will have difficulty jumping from low to high rpm when the throttle is thrown wide open.

This "keep alive" circuit was put on the engines to ensure that all the gas was burned up before shutting down. If not, when restarted, accumulated gas fumes in the exhaust would explode causing a helluva bang. Especially on propane.

This was a common occurance on the JLGs and Genies. Genie eliminated it by adding the Ignition Start Module during later production and prior to the introduction of EFI systems.

So a long story made short, check to see if the voltage is taken away from the Fuel Shut-off Valve when the e-stops are turned off.
It is also possible the fuel shut-off valve is not seating itself completely. Trash, rust, weak spring or deformed seal could cause this.

 

[willie59]

Just so M1687 isn't left scratching his head, the fuel shut off valve is also commonly called "anti-diesel solenoid" or "anti-diesel valve". On the Genie schematic for his machine, it's called anti-diesel valve.

 

[VoodooMojo]

This is true.
Thank you Willie

 

[M1687]

I know its been a while but life got in the way. I finally got back into this project over the weekend and a little bit today.
I have a quick question about the main key switch. Is it designed for the user to be able to start it in the base mode, then be able to switch it over to the platform without it shutting off? If that's the case then I'm ok with the key switch issue. I still have to resolve the e-stops not shutting off the engine.

Also, I finally hooked up the Precision Governor wiring which was disabled when I bought the machine. To make a long story short, I almost blew my engine!!! The governor seemed to be working fine until I lowered the main boom then all of a sudden the engine rpm took off WOT. Holy smokes, that was scary!!!! So my next question is do I need to send in both the mechanical governor and the black box? Or just the black box? Bob had found me a good place in Ohio that tests them etc I already know that something is not working in the system etc.

 

[VoodooMojo]

If it jumped up to full throttle then the actuator is probably ok.
The test was to put 12 volts across the two wires on the actuator (without the engine running). If it snaps wide open then it is good.
Check that it moves smoothly throughout the full range of motion and that the return spring has a healthy pull back.

Testing the governor (black-box) is a simple procedure also, if you are willing to take a stab at it.

 

[M1687]

If it jumped up to full throttle then the actuator is probably ok.
The test was to put 12 volts across the two wires on the actuator (without the engine running). If it snaps wide open then it is good.
Check that it moves smoothly throughout the full range of motion and that the return spring has a healthy pull back.

Testing the governor (black-box) is a simple procedure also, if you are willing to take a stab at it.

Enlighten me on what you mean about putting 12v across both terminals. Are you saying to put a jumper wire across the two and run a 12v positive current on either terminal in order to essentially energize the actuator? The ground wire would be to the outside case?

When this thing took off it seemed like it was beyond WOT. It was at self destruct throttle. lol

Also, how do you test the black box? I think it has 6 terminals and 5 wires being ran into it. I haven't opened it up yet.

 

[VoodooMojo]

Simplified Governor Circuit.
Also the way to test the Actuator. Hook up one of the terminals of the Actuator with Positive and tap the Negative on the other terminal. Actuator should stroke wide open smartly and return quickly when a wire is removed.

The next couple of posts will be the 211 Governor Installation manual. It should give you the information you need.