ford 4500 steering problems

[oldhousehugger]

As I remember it was a 5/16 grade 8 allen head with a lock nut. Be careful that it does not interfere with the drive shaft. I tried lapping out the inside hole in the pitman arm so I could insert a bushing but that was way to hard. Then I figured that the slop in the larger pin was acting like a limit switch just like the pin in the smaller socket. By reducing the travel of the pin in the socket you compensate a little for the wear in the larger main pivot. If you do the math it works. Also if you look at the ag version of this machine, that setup has a stop adjustment both ways. Why the heck didn't they do that here? This machine is just a beefed up agricultural tractor front end. The engine and drive line are the same.

Managers got tired of waiting probably!!!!

Also the adjustment is maddeningly finicky at the turnbuckle on the cylinder. Just keep fine tuning it. I finally got mine to work after several irritating trys.

 

[pegodabob]

1975 4500 ford industrial

I have a 75 ford 4500 industrial tractor, it has a fluid leak in the steering cylinder, i have taken it off the tractor and tried
to get it apart to rebuild but could not get it apart, I have searched and searched the web and companies to find the one i need but can not find it, can anyone point me in the right direction to where i might be able to find what i need.
thanks in advance.

 

[Rogermarineguy]

Thanks,got it out today with some heat on lower spindle #14 and a slide hammer on pin bolt up tension and air hammer down through access hole,need to know whether practical to have #13 bushing to size to accept #14 pin to remove the slop in steering,also someone mentioned set screws? On what component? As these all have to pivot do they not?also trying to see if I can get the power cylinder and valve assembly rebuilt and eye ends resized as they are worn oblong too.Finally, what is the rod adjustment procedure? Thanks for the info Roger

 

[oldhousehugger]

Perhaps this will will help with disassembly of the steering cylinder

 

[Rogermarineguy]

Ford 4500 tractor power assist

Thanks,got it out today with some heat on lower spindle #14 and a slide hammer on pin bolt up tension and air hammer down through access hole,need to know whether practical to have #13 bushing to size to accept #14 pin to remove the slop in steering,also someone mentioned set screws? On what component? As these all have to pivot do they not?also trying to see if I can get the power cylinder and valve assembly rebuilt and eye ends resized as they are worn oblong too.Finally, what is the rod adjustment procedure? Thanks for the info Roger

All reassembled had the pins resized to bushings but now trying to adjust power steering asi have no assist also have lots of play 50 degrees in gearbox,do I need to adjust this first before I get power assist,thank you,roger

 

[Rogermarineguy]

Ford 4500 tractor power steering no assist

:bashHave had links pins and bushings sized including cylinder ends rebus he'd to take out slop in linkage,now have about 50 degrees movement on steering wheel with play in the steering box and still. No assist,have tried to move adjuster rod on cylinder in a turn,still no assist,any ideas old house hugger or live to learn? Thanks roger

 

[Rogermarineguy]

Ford tractor 4500 series

Hi,
I just finished fixing the same problem on my 1966 Ford 4500. You will need to replace all the bushings and pins in the power steering assembly and it will steer with
ease once again.

Live to Learn

Got everything rebus he'd tight at front end but still about 50 degrees of steering wheel travel at steering box before tie bar moves fore and aft to front linkage? Still no power assist,where should the turnbuckle be? Does the fluid need to bleed insome sequence,please advise to get steering ease THANKS ROGER

 

[mitch504]

Your 50 degrees of play in the steering gear is not good, but shouldn't actually keep you from having power assist, unless it is so bad that it is binding. You very likely have a hydraulic problem, not a linkage problem.

If you take the linkage to the turnbuckle loose, restart the tractor, then move the valve spool in the base of the cylinder in or out, the wheels should turn. Be careful to keep your hands away from the pump driveshaft and the parts of the linkage that will move, because if the hydraulics are ok, all that will move very quickly, and you want to keep all your fingers.

I used to work on lots of these at the Ford store and afterwards, but my memories are getting fuzzy. Do you have the pump w/ the integral reservoir, or the pump that that draws from the main hydraulic tank? I think a '68 draws from the main tank. I know that some of the most common problems are the relief valve on the back of the pump, the small suction strainer in the tank, and a poppet valve in the cylinder. I would start the diagnosis by taking the pressure line off the pump and idling the engine. You should get a good flow. If not, take the suction line off the pump and see if you get plenty of oil. If you get good flow from the pump, deadend the line from the pump into a 3-5000 psi guage. These things don't run a lot of pressure, just 12-1300 lbs, if I remember right.

Good luck,
Mitch

 

[Rogermarineguy]

Thanks

Your 50 degrees of play in the steering gear is not good, but shouldn't actually keep you from having power assist, unless it is so bad that it is binding. You very likely have a hydraulic problem, not a linkage problem.

If you take the linkage to the turnbuckle loose, restart the tractor, then move the valve spool in the base of the cylinder in or out, the wheels should turn. Be careful to keep your hands away from the pump driveshaft and the parts of the linkage that will move, because if the hydraulics are ok, all that will move very quickly, and you want to keep all your fingers.

I used to work on lots of these at the Ford store and afterwards, but my memories are getting fuzzy. Do you have the pump w/ the integral reservoir, or the pump that that draws from the main hydraulic tank? I think a '68 draws from the main tank. I know that some of the most common problems are the relief valve on the back of the pump, the small suction strainer in the tank, and a poppet valve in the cylinder. I would start the diagnosis by taking the pressure line off the pump and idling the engine. You should get a good flow. If not, take the suction line off the pump and see if you get plenty of oil. If you get good flow from the pump, deadend the line from the pump into a 3-5000 psi guage. These things don't run a lot of pressure, just 12-1300 lbs, if I remember right.

Good luck,
Mitch

Thanks Mitch loosened off turnbuckle at steering linkage end and let valve seat on end of travel and steering spun fast to one side as you said.tried to position valve in centre when steering wheel on centre but no assist,pump putting out pressure fine had some air in it bleed and adjusted .025 of an inch each time still no assist,must have a valve issue or can I see the adjustment procedure from manual,thks roger

 

[Rogermarineguy]

Mitch thanks

Thanks Mitch loosened off turnbuckle at steering linkage end and let valve seat on end of travel and steering spun fast to one side as you said.tried to position valve in centre when steering wheel on centre but no assist,pump putting out pressure fine had some air in it bleed and adjusted .025 of an inch each time still no assist,must have a valve issue or can I see the adjustment procedure from manual,thks roger

Looking for available turnbuckle adjustment procedure if you could forward please roger@marina.ca thank you still trying to get power assist on this tractor,thank. You rogermarineguy

 

[mitch504]

I emailed it to you, it's only 2 or 3 lines in the service manual and a picture.

 

[Rogermarineguy]

Tractor4500fordsteering

Thanks Mitch for the steering turnbuckle adjustment procedure,I am able to adjust the turnbuckle without removing the radiator(again) by prying up on both lower corners,however I've noticed that no matter how much adjusting I have done is causing the steering to Whip to the right fiercely to lock. I have also tried today disconnecting one end of turnbuckle and prying out on the valve which results in the same whip to right,when the valve is all the way in nothing happens as far as assist is concerned ,do I have a bad valve,you mentioned a poppet valve or is it a spool valve or do I have a bad cylinder? What about the shims for the steering anchor pin I have one on the top and one on the bottom to align cylinder rod?please advise driving me off the deep end,roger

 

[Rogermarineguy]

Removed pressure line at cylinder valve at front ,not a lot of pressure or flow actually full off air bubbles into a container,removed suction valve and spring looks like the spring was stretched at some point to gain more pressure ??? Ordered a new spring to try before condemning the pump,pump may be worn internally sucking air? What are your thoughts,thanks roger

 

[Rogermarineguy]

Ordered and installed compression spring in feed side of pump,removed return line at power cylinder into bucket,lots of air bubbles,replace line and fill with funnel at top connection,fill hydraulic tank,start engine and steering turns hard to right stop.readjust turn buckle and turns easy to left stop.valve on cylinder feels like binding in bore ,remove valve assembly with turnbuckle attached,inspect valve and clean with emery cloth and replace prongs and reinstall.also loosen up turnbuckle screws and straighten rod as it appears bent.adjusted turnbuckle and steering doesn't spin all by itself to either side but still feels like manual steering which I had originally,Not sure what I have a problem with now,A PUMP PROBLEM??

 

[oldhousehugger]

Items I rebuilt or replaced to get my old 4500 iron pile steering to work.

From the steering cylinder exploded schematic items:
2 (bushing), 4a(had eye welded back into ram), 44(taper pin) and all the o-rings. Completely disassembled, cleaned and rebuilt with new o-rings.


From the front axle and steering schematic:
13 (actuator, tapped set screw into side to reduce travel of captive pin from 14 below),
14 (main steering pivot, smallest of two pins loosely engages a socket in the bottom of actuator (13). The loose fit is supposed to allow a certain amount of play to let the cylinder valve self center. The valve in the cylinder can only move in or out maybe 1/16 of an inch either way so any more is damaging it. That is why getting most of the slop out of the system is a good idea.)
31 (main pivot pin, original had .03 wear toward the top)
52 ( top and bottom bushings at the main pivot pin)

I replaced the king pins and bushings in the axle ends and spindles along with wheel bearings and seals. I had to turn the wheel hubs to a larger ID to receive the new style grease seals I bought.

I brazed shut several holes rubbed in the hydraulic lines running from the steering pump to the cylinder and rerouted the new rubber supply hoses . I used a modern o-ring type fitting at the supply port of the cylinder because I could not find a locally available antique English type fitting which had been leaking. This required grinding clearance for the new fitting into the cast iron casting of the front end.

I had a heck of a time getting the pin which connects the ram to the front casting out but reused the pin after retapping the threads and using a set screw to keep it tight.

The steering box attached to the steering wheel was a disaster. Water had accumulated in the bottom of the steering box and corroded the ball bearings and race which is machined into the bottom end of the steering shaft. I purchased an aftermarket shaft made in Turkey supplied by a tractor parts dealer in east Texas. I was worried it would be to soft but for what little I am expecting of the machine these days it will do.

Somewhere on this site I have pictures of rebuilding the steering box.

I tore the steering pump apart and used 120 grit sandpaper glued to a surface plate to take the wear out of the rear end of the pump by hand lapping it. I rebuilt it with new o-rings from a local supplier. It worked great after that.

The radiator cooling fins were completely blocked by old oil and dirt as well as there being water leaks around the oil cooler fittings at the bottom of the radiator. I used oven cleaner and high pressure water to get most of the dirt out of the fins and took it to a local radiator shop to get the leaks fixed. The steel frame soldered to the radiator had broken loose and was resoldered.

This was just the steering system. The rest of the machine is a whole other story. If this were easy everybody would be doing it.

I'm working on the steering clutches out of my Komatsu D20 this week.

 

[Rogermarineguy]

Wow! Oldhousehugger,thanks for the response it looks like you've done a pile of work also.getting the play/wear out of this system as Mitch has noted as well is a bit of a challenge I'd say.i like your idea of lapping out the end plates in the pump as I've priced out a pump and its anywhere from 550-900 Canadian dollars to order and deliver.i have lots of volume but not much pressure and lots of air in the hydraulic pump so I think I may be on the right course ,will let you know thanks again roger,much appreciated and Mitch's help also.

 

[Tinkerer]

I have lots of volume but not much pressure and lots of air in the hydraulic pump so I think I may be on the right course ,will let you know thanks again roger,much appreciated and Mitch's help also.

You need to determine how the air is getting into the system and eliminate that part of the problem. It could be from having the system opened. But I would suspect a leak in a suction line,or the pump itself. It was previously posted that the steel lines do get holes rubbed into them. I have found it only takes a pinhole to cause air to enter the system.

 

[oldhousehugger]

You need to determine how the air is getting into the system and eliminate that part of the problem. It could be from having the system opened. But I would suspect a leak in a suction line,or the pump itself. It was previously posted that the steel lines do get holes rubbed into them. I have found it only takes a pinhole to cause air to enter the system.

My pump had a bad seal at the driveshaft of the pump and I replaced the seals (maybe it was a double seal) as well as all the o-rings and it works. Be careful with the relief valve settings I think they are adjusted with shims. I found great parts diagrams through Messicks in Pa. They are good to work with if the parts are still available they will work with Ford to get them for you. A&I is also a source but their quality has been spotty. I found several hard to find parts by placing parts requests on Tractorhouse.com. I got the center pivot pin (New old stock) from a retired Ford dealer in Iowa at their original 1965 cost. They called me. They were glad to get rid of it. What Tinkerer said about pinhole leaks is very important to check. Figure a way to pressurize each tube and hose and see what comes out. Murphy always puts leaks where you can't see them.

 

[oldhousehugger]

I also had to replace the main hydraulic pump on the tractor not because it was so badly worn but it was sucking air too. The seal kit from the supplier was something like $350 bucks and a new pump not a whole lot more. I hated to do it but I went with new because the seals were so high.

 

[Rogermarineguy]

Thanks for the suction lines and side of pump,I configured a pressure tester and looked could not find leaks and the pressure held,removed pump and inspected front seal definitely leaking and put grooves in shaft which I think I can get out I am looking up other seals required to reassemble,checked the clearance between gear and wall have .004 is that too much? Also the bearing assembly(where the shaft goes through,looks like brass knuckles for two fingers)has some play but are not available separately,is that an issue,do you think I can just clean up with some 200 sandpaper and reveal and try it,thanks Roger