Fiat Allis 14C transmission oil pressure regulator

[lpnt65]

Hi Mr & Mrs Animal, Wondering how you are progressing with FA14 is it usable yet, Guess with snow and sheep andcattle you havent had any time to get into it I would be pleased to hear from you any time Regardas Lesp

 

[Queenslander]

For those of you chasing a worksop manual, try the link below . I have bought parts from them before and found them very good to deal with.http://http://www.tractorspareparts...page=product_info&cPath=78_79&products_id=331
Cheers, Greg




http://www.tractorspareparts.com.au/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=78_79&products_id=331

 

[Animal]

Hi Mr & Mrs Animal, Wondering how you are progressing with FA14 is it usable yet, Guess with snow and sheep andcattle you havent had any time to get into it I would be pleased to hear from you any time Regardas Lesp

Hi Lpnt65, Yes everthings been going well once I put the new pump in and sorted the pressure gauge pick up point. I've done near 150 hours since then and no problems at all. The more I drive it the more impressed I am, it's been a long time since I drove a D6 but I don't recall them being this user freindly. Just while I think of it, when I'm on very step ground with the right hand side and the nose pointing slightly down hill I some times run out of steering clutch or brake pressure, I assume this is because of low oil at the pick up, I was going to top up the oil in the rear end and see if that helps. Any comments on that? Thanks once again for all your help, I couldn't have have got to where I did with out your help. Nelson.

 

[lpnt65]

Thats Great i am glad it is at last being used, WE ourselves had earlier model Alliss Chalmers Hd21ep and that machine did 22000hrs and only had i engine o/h the drive train at 20000 hrs the brother thought He better have a look see if it would need any work all they did was put new seals & gaskets in it and put back together , Your problem could be not picking up the oil ,we had 10c that when working in very steep conditions was the same but we just slightly over filled it, it was not perfect but was better
I think more better to stay away from those places unless you can go straight down , Or then again you could continue but get your self some extara life insurance!!! nah Just Joking stay safe take care LES

 

[spanner]

Queenslander
I have been pondering your problem but unfortunately don't have an easy answer. Some thoughts though that may help or not.
Some things that cause heat in a powershift transmission.
Normal operation, torque convertors create heat, that is their nature but this is obviously not your problem.
High/Low oil level; symptoms include heat, lack of drive; you have discounted this.
Worn or excessive clearance in convertor pump or turbine impellor or stator; symptoms include heat,lack of drive; you have discounted this
Worn convertor charge pump; symptoms include heat, lack of drive, low system pressure; you have discounted this.
Faulty relief or modulation valve; smptoms include heat, noise, fluctuating pressure, lack of drive, jerky shifts; you have discounted this.
Worn clutch plates/discs; symptoms include heat, lack of drive; you have discounted this
Bad bearings or other rotating parts; symptoms include heat, noise, lack of drive, metal in filters/oil; you have disconted this
Blocked/restricted filters;symptoms include heat,noise,lack of drive,low pressure; you have discounted this.
Blocked/restricted oil cooler/heat exchanger; symptoms include fluctuating pressure,heat and heat.
Oil coolers can be tricky devils. A blockage of the oil side is rare but can happen with bits of o ring or my favourite, gobs of silicone from some repair or other. This can act like an orifice or worse a series of orifices ? orifi ? more than one. These are commonly used in hydraulics to deliver a pressure drop , a by-product of which is heat. A blockage/restriction on the coolant side (which is more common ) can cause odd stuff with heat transfer. It can cause the cooler to act more like a stove, ie boiling a pot of water on an electric element(conduction) rather than like a hot water system which transfers heat from one liquid to another (convection). Given time the heat WILL transfer but it's a matter of whether it's too much heat being generated or not enough cooling happening.
I have not begun to mention evrything that CAN go wrong but although I am a newbie to this forum, I have been watching for a while and thre is plenty of knowledgeable members that can and will help. Maybe this will get the diagnostic juices flowing.
Cheers.

 

[spanner]

Sorry, forgot to get to my main point which is that I would personally not do a convertor/tranny overhaul (for overheating reasons)without also pulling the cooler. You may be right and are up for a rebuild but pull the cooler you may get luckey. What do you all think?

 

[Queenslander]

Spanner,
I really appreciate the time you've taken to analyze and respond to my transmission (or whatever the **** it is) problem.
You're right, of course, to suggest that I should eliminate the smaller potential causes before tackeling the bigger ones.
I've ordered seals, etc, so hope to pull the heat exchanger down in the next week or two.
Are there any other symptoms a worn torque converter would present, other than excessive heat and lack of drive?
Cheers, Greg

 

[Animal]

Hi Greg, it will be interesting to see if you find any rubbish in the heat exchanger. When I flushed ours, I got lots of old sediment from the oil, probability dating back to 2000BC, so could be the same problem for yours. Nelson.

 

[spanner]

In my experience, lack of drive, metal in oil or burnt oil are the first to present. Other things are possible such as a bad overrunning clutch (sprag) but best to rule out simpler stuff first.
I once had a D9L operator claim his tranny/convertor was shot but it turned out he had a front idler locked solid and the dozer was battling just to move itself. Sad but true. May pay to check that the machine moves freely and something is not binding up.
Animal, looks like you have your troubles sorted.

 

[Queenslander]

Spanner,
It looks like your advice may be paying dividends already.
I pulled the transmission cooler off this afternoon, and it's not very pretty,maybe up to 30% of the coolant tubes clogged.
The engine oil cooler is in slightly better order, but not by much.
Some tubes I cleared with compressed air, but others are much more tightly packed.
What would you suggest?
A new transmission cooler would cost $3100 and the engine cooler $1800.
Cheers, Greg

 

[spanner]

Queenslander,
That's some serious damage (to the bank balance) . You can only be guided by some common sense and gut instinct here. As a fitter, my obvious answer is go new, fit and forget but it's not me that has to pony up. What I would do is this. Get some household calcium/lime/rust dissolver, put it in a metal container (cut off 20/60 litre drum) throw in the coolers and go do something else for a day or two. I think CAT make a product just for this purpose if you could be bothered. Get a softish piece of wire (unfluxed brazing rod is good) and set to gently poke,shake,jiggle,blow or whatever else at the worst area you can see. Once you get a tube or two clear have a good look down there and see what sort of condition the tubes are in without the crap. If they appear to very pitted/thin or seriously damaged you are probably wasting your time . Sometimes the fact that the tube is blocked is the only reason you aren't getting water in oil or oil in water. If they look good it may be worth the effort to salvage the coolers. You will know when you look, if you have to work hard to convince yourself that all will be well you should probably be tossing them. If you can, make some blanking plates and air pressure test the coolant side of the coolers to eliminate leaks (coolant in oil = trouble. You only need to go to about 15psi and nomore than 2 or3 psi more than radiator cap is rated at or you will make a serious bang. I have cleaned/reused bad coolers in the past although only to be able to use the machine until the new ones arrive. Let us know what you find.

 

[Animal]

Hi Greg, Spanner has a good point on the condition of the tubes, if they are getting thin it's only a matter of time. With that said the ones in my cooler are copper so if they are thin it could be worth finding someone to rebuild it for you with new tubes? Quiet possibly cheaper than new. It might be possible to use liquid nitrogen to clean them although I'm not sure how far into the tubes it will get? At least it wouldn't damage them. Nelson.

 

[Queenslander]

I've made some more calls today and found reconditioned, tested coolers for $1000 each, with the old ones returned.
They're from a reputable parts supplier that I deal with all the time, so I think that's pretty good value.
I must say, I was kinda relieved to see them in such poor shape, maybe THIS is the answer to my prayers.
Thanks to all for the support.
Cheers, Greg

 

[spanner]

Queenslander
Reco is the way to go for sure.

 

[Animal]

Hi Greg, Yes definitely the way to go, some one else has had to do the testing and mucking around. It will will interesting to see if that solves the problem which I sort of suspect it will. Good Luck, Nelson.

 

[spanner]

You might want to try and give the system a flush before you put it back together. About all you can do is put a hose in various openings while a helper blocks off others with rags. May help remove some more chunky bits. You may want to try a cooling system cleaner and then run a coolant/ conditioner. We run Castrol Coolplus diluted about 50/50. Operators tend to top up with water so gets pretty diluted between services but it keeps the systems in pretty good order.

 

[Queenslander]

Spanner,
What would be some of the pros and cons of fitting an overflow tank to the radiator to help prevent the dilution problem?.
I haven't had a proper look, but probably the easiest place to mount one would be in the space between the radiator and the front guard, not the most hospitable place for a plastic tank to reside.
Also,it may have to be somewhat lower than the top tank of the radiator.
Cheers, Greg

 

[Animal]

Hi Greg, For your interest I've put a over flow tank on our 14 because I was sick off it blowing coolant out. As it turns out the rad cap I was useing only had 10BLs pressure relief. The tank (milk bottle)I put in is only a temp one until I fine a proper one. In the past when I've done them I've found that the seal on the over flow pipe from the rad top tank to the over flow tank has to be good as it is under suction as well as blow pressure. The rad cap has to have a return valve so it can suck back to the header tank,not sure what the original is like as I'm waiting for mine to arrive. And lastly I've found that if you can get the catch tank close to the height of the top tank it won't have far to suck coolant back up. My catch tank (milk bottle) is sitting on the cross brace for the blade rams, just so happens to be about the top tank height. I am in the process of trying to find a better suited catch tank but time is always an issue. It does appear to work although a slightly high rad cap pressure would be better. Food for thought, Nelson.

 

[spanner]

Queenslander
An overflow tank is a good idea. Animal has made some good points though. Everything needs to be well sealed, the longer the hose the more critical. Do you have a genuine radiator cap? I have been caught out with over the counter caps. There is sometimes a mm or two difference in the spring length so even though it is marked at say 13 psi in reality it is releasing at maybe 9 or ten which causes you to go chasing a cooling system problem that doesn't exist while assuming the brand new cap is good. As Animal says you will need a double acting cap to run an overflow bottle. Generic automotive bottles are mostly crap. A good trick is to stick yor head in the engine bay of evry earthmoving machine you come accross and when you see one that suits order one from that machines dealer. I found one in an ONAN generator once that was the bees knees, very thick plastic, squareish and with moulded in 6mm mounting nuts. May be expensive though.

 

[Queenslander]

Animal,
What's the pressure rating of the cap you are running?
The service manual doesn't mention it specifically, only that the system is to be tested to 14psi, so I assume 13 should do the job.
Cheers, Greg