Fiat Allis 14C transmission oil pressure regulator

[willd8r]

Hi LK2628 With a name like that would you know Gerald Stanley He sold Benz at Cable price way back

 

[LK2628]

Greetings all, thanks Willie59, I shall have to get cracking with the typing and get past the Probationary stage!
Willd8r, you are right on the mark, Gerald must have bent your ear on a few occasions if you recognise that designation!These days we are in the same office, not at Cable Price now, but he is still selling, talking and breathing the 3 pointed star! One of our industries true ledgends over here. He was the Service Manager when I started. Can I ask your connection?
Animal, we are getting over it all, won't wish an earthquake on anyone after this, it would be easier to start with a bare block of land to rebuild, than go through the hassle of demolition, repair, rebuild! Shaking continues, but if it doesn't break something, it doesn't really count anymore Good news is that it has brought every make, model, year and size of earthmoving iron and road transport into the city, some fine machinery at work and alot of good guys and companies putting a big effort into our place. Thanks to you all. Don't think there are too many cities using a Hitachi UH801 long reach excavator (not an 081)in the streets to do building demolition? (L&M Minings old one I think) Hope you did not have anyone directly affected by any of the big shakes, we have been lucky so far, you can replace buildings, people are not so easy.
We'll get the post count up, then see what we can do to get in touch with some help with the 14. Cheers.

 

[Queenslander]

Animal, I emailed you the the transmission section from the service manual,however it was a big file.
Let me know if you haven't recieved it and I'll send it again in smaller files.

LK2628, I could really use some advice from your contacts as well.
I have a powershift 14 C with about 10000 hrs on it that is overheating.This has been a steadily worsening thing , not something that just happened overnight.
Usually both the motor and transmission heat up together. Once it gets hot, backing off or changing speeds won't cool it down, you have to pull up and throw it in neutral.
Although the motor is a little tired, Iam pretty sure it isn't the problem, it has a new radiator, water pump and recoed fuel pump.
Today was a cold day (for Queensland) and the tranny went to the red whilst the motor stayed cool, 85-90 c
The tractor performs faultlessly otherwise,will always spins the tracks in first.
The pressure guage reads 1500 kpa regardless of engine revs and only flickers when changing speeds or passing through neutral.
I suspect the transmission needs an overhaul but I would like to get a little more advice before comitting to that.
Cheers, Greg

 

[LK2628]

Queenslander, I have printed off your post, will talk to a couple of local guys that I hope can remember days inside these beasties, I will come back with some leads if possible. One thought, is the transmission dipstick correctly marked for oil level? Have seen it before, even to truck components, where they have be incorrectly filled/overfilled with oil, or the dipstick has been re-marked incorrectly? End result is same, weather it has tracks or wheels, to much heat created! Suggest dropping oil and refill with specified quantity if you have manuals to refer to. That it has been steadily getting worse may rule this out, unless it it's dragging oil from the hydraulic system? Sorry, not familar enough with them to know where the two systems cross, probably at converter? Agree about engine, they were a good unit, would look elsewhere first.
Animal, got your PM, will reply over weekend.
Willd8r, did Gus in Nelson run his 14's on logging? The Nelson area got the last brand new one delivered here before Cables pulled the plug on Fiat Allis as far as I know.
Cheers.

 

[Animal]

Hi Queenslander, thanks for your message, I have sent you an email

RE: the overheating. I wonder if it would be worth your while contacting Allis Dozer & Equipment in Tamworth, NSW (02)6762 2944

They are one of the places we have touched base with, and although we have had no reply yet, perhaps they could advise you?

To everyone else, have checked more valves and 'stuff' (yes this is Mrs Animal) but no joy yet.

Hey, did you see the photo of our gorgeous machine in the other thread?!?

 

[greeniron]

gidday fellows , can`t help with the oil pressour problem but i was wondering if you could clear one thing up for me
i was on the understanding that these dozers had a hyd clutch instead of a torque converter in front of the powershift trans
which was a manual shift high - low lever and a 2 speed forward - reverse power shift lever
the reason i ask is because when driving these dozers you can stall the motor and if it was a torque converter , that would be impossible

 

[Queenslander]

greeniron,
Fiat used this system on many of their dozers and loaders, I think they called it Idrovert, it offered a combination of both direct drive and powershift and I believe it worked very well.
However later tractors also came with the option of torque converter+powershift.
What experience have you had with the master clutch version?
Cheers, Greg

 

[Queenslander]

Queenslander, I have printed off your post, will talk to a couple of local guys that I hope can remember days inside these beasties, I will come back with some leads if possible. .

Thanks LK2628, much appreciated.

 

[RDG]

As for steep slopes, some machines have a recomended over fill in the tranny for operation on steep slopes, Cat & Hanomag were two that come to mind, mainly to avoid loss of trans/clutch press which can cause loss of drive or depending on what make; the brakes come on. Are u sure the gauge is working properly, not telling lies by any chance, and if it takes a long time to move after starting I would think it might be sucking air somewhere, could be an O ring some where on the suction side. Cheers RDG.

 

[LK2628]

Giday team, another big day in shakey city, all that lovely mud and silt has come up through the roads, gardens, peoples houses, again! Looks like we are back to square one, very disappointing to get workers back to start recovery all over again, but we didn't loose anyone this time, some good news. Still moving now as I type!
Queenslander, we agree with RDG about the trans possibily being overfilled to suit terrrain, but that this will also cause overheating if not required. Likewise, check for suction leaks, and that the pick-up screens are clean. Apparently over here, the radiators were re-cored with round tubes, the original angled tubes were more of a dirt trap and the core could not be cleaned out, the round tubes made this job easier and more effective. Is the oil cooler on the engine? Also agree about temp gauge, electrics have never been an Italian strong point in my experience, is it possible to check temp another way, does it smell hot/oil discolouring? My man doubts it is the trans as such, but did not get time to get into it, shall follow up some more. Good luck.

 

[Queenslander]

LK2628,
We were dismayed to here of your latest shake over there,it must be extremely unnerving to have that threat hanging over you constantly. Hopefully everything will settle back into place shortly.
When I first bought the tractor I was told to check the transmission level with warm oil and engine running,some years later I managed to find an operators manual which said to check it with warm oil and engine stopped.
Which means it was probably overfilled initially, but the new level had no effect on the temp. situation either.
At various times, due to some leak or other, I've been forced to run the tractor with low oil level, barely touching the end of the dipstik, with no noticible difference in temp.
Can't be 100% sure about the trans temp gauge but during normal weather conditions,20-30c, it goes to the red and takes the engine to boiling point .
It does have an oil cooler but I haven't had it apart, my reasoning being that there is plenty of heat being transferred so it is probably working OK.Does this make sense?
I recently replaced the scavenge/steering clutch pump, it was pumping transmission oil into the bevel gear compartment, and cleaned/replaced all the filters and screens etc. at the same time.
Could it be possible for the converter to cause temp. problems?
Cheers, Greg

 

[lpnt65]

Greetings Queenslander, Are you sure it is not a crook temp Gauge on your !4 C, you may be able to rig up another gauge tro check Just a thought, i have had it happen on my Wabco Grader

 

[lpnt65]

mr & mrs Animal how are your endeavours going to get F/A 14 up and going {Maybe the latest shake may help r u any where near christchurch} I was in Whakatane years ago when i felt my first ever earthquake it is unsettling when you see Pine trees leaning over one way then going other direction on next shake.

 

[Queenslander]

Yeah Ipnt65, it is a physical type gauge, not an electrical one, so it would be easy to bring home and check against my wifes' cooking thermometer eh?

 

[lpnt65]

Hi Greeniron. they had 2options on Transmission one had torque convertor, the other had manual with schuttle Shift lever looked like power shift lever

 

[Animal]

Hi guys, problem not yet solved, but still working on it. At one point Mr Animal found a small bit of blocked hose *somewhere* Being unable to blow it clean with compressed air he opted to replace it. He discovered that the blockage was actually a piece of WIRE that some bright spark must have pushed up the hose to clean it, and broke it off inside. Unbelievable.

Anyway, we have had FANTASTIC help & support from Queenslander, who has taken a lot of time to send us bits of his manual. We can't thank him enough. Also LK2628 who gave us a number of contacts.

Yesterday we spoke to a mechanic who has worked on these machines (at last!) He has suggested we look at the valve block assembly where the gearbox valves are (I think I have that correct) So that is the plan now.

 

[Queenslander]

Animal, In your PM you mentioned that you have ordered O rings.
In the Fiat parts book, all (most) O ring numbers end with a 0, which will get you the standard black variety.
With my supplier at least, if you substitute the 0 for a 1 , they will supply the brown high temp. ones, much better suited to these applications.
Greg

 

[Animal]

Good advice, thanks

 

[Animal]

update

Good evening All, hopefully tonight will be better than last! O.K. as Rose said it looks as though the trans pump is worn. I've sent it off to be recond, so we'll see what they say? I had spoken to a chap down in Invercargill last week ( old Fiat-Allis machanic) who suggested(after giving him the symptoms) to pull the gearbox control valve apart and look for possible oil dumping in the retarder valves. I found lots of gunge, worn "O" rings and blocked up orifices but no it didn't solve the problem. So the last thing to do was pull the pump back out. Last time I had it apart I didn't have the spec sheet that Greg has been so kind to send over, so this time I was able to measure it and find that it was worn. interestingly there was not a lot of ware marks on the pump and it had been apart before, hence the reason I thought it had been recond when they did the trans.
Ipnt65, the front carrier rollers, I will repair them but they weren't on the priority list. Three out of four had damage to them. When I had the right hand track frame out I rebuilt the mounting points but wasn't planning to do the other side until I pull the track frame on that in the summer. I wondered if the pedestals didn't get knocked off by logs or something. Interesting if any of the guy's working with them in the forest service had any similar problems? D6Merv, I can't tell if this 14 is ex Forest Service as it's had the cowling over the dash replaced, I remember the I.D. plates that the FS used as I use to work for them as a culler. This machine has had a winch on it at some stage.
Oh well I'll let you know what the results are on the pump when I speak to them next week and we'll see if we've succeeded.
Queenslander, just for your info I had the heat exchanger apart and the coolant pipes are very close together and it wouldn't take much filth to clog up the bottom half which would reduce the cooling. Plus the "O" rings I've used are Nitrile.
Thanks very much to all of you for all your help. Nelson

 

[Animal]

Good evening All, sorry not much has been said lately as I've been working to pay for "animal". I sent the trans pump to a hydraulic specialist who had a quick look and confermed it was stuffed, so then started the look for a replacement. Second hand ones are a bit like hens teeth, Luckily I've found "Maintrac" in Westport who import Fiat-allis parts from Italy who said yes I can get replacement parts to repear the old one or buy a new pump for not much more than the parts. So for $1800NZ I can have one landed here next week. Easy really.
When I get and put it in I'll let you know the results. Speak to you soon, Nelson.