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Fiat Allis 14C transmission oil pressure regulator

Discussion in 'Dozers' started by Animal, May 26, 2011.

  1. Animal

    Animal Well-Known Member

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    Hi, I am a new member here, and recently bought my first ever bulldozer, a Fiat Allis 14C. I'm having problems with low transmission oil pressure.

    I have pulled the pressure regulator apart, and it looks as though the piston has been put in backwards (the relief holes are closest to the spring?)

    Could anyone please tell me if this is correct, and also the correct way to re-set the spring tension?

    Any help would be very much appreciated. Thank you.

    I look forward to meeting a few members here :)
     
  2. Animal

    Animal Well-Known Member

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    Low Transmission Oil Pressure in general...

    Hmmm...I am going to expand my original question a little in the hope that someone here can point me in the right direction. :Banghead

    The transmission oil pump is working fine, it has been pulled apart and checked. What do you think I should look at next to solve this problem?
     
  3. lpnt65

    lpnt65 Well-Known Member

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    My memory of the 14c is that a valve used to stick closed or fail to open suficently, Also Check the grade of oil in transmission.
    I think you wil find that the Transmission is ok However does it push ok or lacking in power/Grunt
    The NZ Forest Serrvice in Rotorua had a few from memory they had both 10c and 14c You never know they may have a contact that could help you.
    further, They were a good lively machine
    :Banghead:Banghead:bash
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2011
  4. Animal

    Animal Well-Known Member

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    Thank you so much for your reply and suggestions. I am pretty sure the oil is correct, as the mechanic/husband followed the manual and knows about this sort of thing. I will pass on your info re: sticky valve. I'll let you know what he says- perhaps we may ask you more if you don't mind?

    We have been trying to chat to people familiar with this model here in NZ, or who have a manual, but it has been dragging on a bit. It is hard to pester people when you are asking for their help! :) That is one of the reasons that I signed up here...

    and I am so glad I did!!!
     
  5. Animal

    Animal Well-Known Member

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    Hi thanks Ipnt65, I was starting to wonder if there is a valve stuck open and dumping oil pressure as I have pulled the main pressure regulator apart and everything appears O.K. I've tried different spring tensions but no change. Oil is a mono 30 grade oil as per opperators manual. The spool valves for the forward, reverse and the 3 speeds does leak oil out of the seals where the shafts go in, but I was going to look at them at a later date but maybe I'll have to look sooner?
    The machine seems to perform O.K. has plenty of push, and I have even managed to spin the tracks on firm ground, it shuttles forward to reverse in about 1/2 a second which to me seems O.K. But it takes about 1/2 an hour to warm up before you can move it,you can encourage it to move earlier if you run at 1/2 throttle and shuttle forward/reverse for a bit and then it will move in about 10 minutes. I sort of suspect there's not a major problem but it would be nice to sort it out. Many thanks.
     
  6. lpnt65

    lpnt65 Well-Known Member

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    Hi Again i was thinking is the 14 a FULL Power shift thru torque convertor OR power shift type gear change lever and it has a clutch i Cant recall now how it worked The 10c had a problem when you were dozing down a steep hill the tranmission would delay to long before machine would reverse. the problem there was valves sticking when they were tested at standing they were ideal but put the nose down hill pressure dropped there were only 2 that had that problem i left nz before problem was resolved but i do know that they found it was valves both were working in very steep country one was up back of Matahina area doing Logging and the other was up at Waihau Bay on East Coast doing general cotracting work on farms etc. will see if i can locate a manual for either machine I haven't had much to do with dozers for a few years, thats what happens when one retires you also forget things
     
  7. lpnt65

    lpnt65 Well-Known Member

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    hi Again again,Have you checked to see if hoses are in good condition periodicly, the hoses on a Wabco Grader I had the interior of the hoses separated this of course blocked most of oil get to the transmission yet the pressures were all ways good when they were checked it had only a few hundred hours on clock when this occured. So as a suggestion cxheck interior of hoses someone may hve replaced a hose that is not compatable with the presures or even the non compatable with the oil i
     
  8. willie59

    willie59 Super Moderator

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    I know nothing about a 14C, just wondering if it has a converter driven charge pump that is fed by hose from tranny sump. Maybe hose or elbow connections are allowing air into charge pump suction line causing difficulty to draw oil. And is there a strainer in suction line that's maybe clogged?
     
  9. Animal

    Animal Well-Known Member

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    Good morning All, Yes the 14 I have has full power shift and torque converter (built about 1980). Interesting you said about the sticky valves when on a steep slope, I was backing up the other day and it would shuttle forward so by screwing sideways was enough to engage forward and away I went, it was petty steep only just backed up.
    Some of the hose's were not in good condition on the outside so have been replaced. The T/C pump's hose's are O.K. as I've had the pump apart and checked the pressure line and replaced the intake hose when I cleaned the filters etc. Yes Willie59 the pump is charge from the trany sump via the intake filter and hose, but I have just remembered there is a pressure return line form the regulator back to the pump intake and the seals there might not be so good as they are only a couple of fiber washers of dubious quality.
    Ipnt65, I happen the be in South Canterbury even though the dozer came from Taupo so am not familar with dealers or machanics up there, but was trying to remeber if Cable-Price were the agents for Fiat-Aliis or if it was someone else?
    Thanks for your help guy's it gives me more channels to follow. Would by running the trans oil pressure low cause much if any damage? Thanks once again Nelson.
     
  10. D6 Merv

    D6 Merv Senior Member

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    Hi Animal.
    Yes Cable-Price were the agents, but have long since abandoned Fiat Allis.
    If you are close to one of there dealers mite be worth asking if there is any older personnel there that may have been around in the days of the 10C and 14C, I,m fairly sure also that the NZFS bought a few of these machines when they came out.
    Cheers Merv
     
  11. lpnt65

    lpnt65 Well-Known Member

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    Hi Again. I think it would be worth trying the new company that have started up inNz few years agoall I know that Bob Mcfarlane who used to Be NZ manager for Cable price is Manager of this new company as far as i knbow they sell Hitachi gear or You may think about calling theFormer Manager of cable price Rotorua His name is John Clayton i guess he is still around although he would be in his seventies His address is Sophia St Rotorua hge may be able to puit you in touch with former cPD Mechanics
    Tell him Les Paton said to call {he can be bit short at times but he a great bloke} I am sure if any one can help you either of these 2 blokes could regards lpnt65
     
  12. Animal

    Animal Well-Known Member

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    Hi, just a quick update on the dozer. We very much suspect an air leak in a hose causing the line to suck air. Currently trying to find the leak, and also to find a picture of the hydraulic system from a manual.

    Thanks for the names and contacts, Les and Merv, too. All your help is very much appreciated.

    Will try and keep you posted with our progress, and hopefully some good results to share :)

    -Mrs Animal (hence short on detailed explanation of leak etc)
     
  13. Animal

    Animal Well-Known Member

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    Very Brief Update: Himself found a hole in a short piece of hose where oil could get out yesterday. He has replaced that length and we hope that will be problem solved. Fingers crossed...
     
  14. Animal

    Animal Well-Known Member

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    Animal update

    Animal update. Evening All, yes, were to now? The only thing that seems possitive is that the symptoms seem consistent. We still have low pressure, no change there, and we do have air in the oil, but after the pump.
    I've had the pump out and all the suction line including the filter housing on the trans, reassembled it with new "O" rings, gaskets etc. Checked the scavenger pump and line and strainer, O.K. now. interestingly I'm finding little faults here and there but nothing to solve the problem. I don't think who ever worked on this machine was particularly fastidious.
    In the beginning the charge pump use to flood the torque converter so at least it doesn't do that now. I've cleaned the heat exchanger thinking that was not flowing oil. I've had the bottom off the control valves to see if I could find something but other than an "O" ring that wasn't right all else seem O.K. What I have got is small oil leaks on the seals for the control shafts on the valve head plus leaks on the input and output shaft for the torq/convert and trans, are these a problem?
    I'm starting to scratch my head now! Is it possible for air to get into the system via the control valve? A struck valve would expain low pressure but air? Thats why I haven't opened it up yet but maybe that's tomorrows job.
    Les I haven't managed to get hold of John yet but will keep trying. Many thanks guy's. Nelson.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2011
  15. Queenslander

    Queenslander Senior Member

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    Animal,
    I have a 14C, but luckily your particular problem is one I've never had.
    My transmission woes involve overheating but that's another story.
    I do have a service manual with a good schematic diagram of the transmission hydraulic system if you're still looking for one.
    Cheers, Greg
     
  16. Animal

    Animal Well-Known Member

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    Oh yes PLEASE!!! I will send you our email via private message and maybe you could send it to us?

    We have spoken to so many peolpe who just can't remember because it has been so long since they worked on these machines, or else the person who knows is away on holiday/vacation, or we just get the answer machine, or they have a manual *somewhere* but can't find it. The diagram may be just the ticket :)
     
  17. willd8r

    willd8r Well-Known Member

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    H i I know Gus in Nelson up the road abit he may be able to help cause he owned a couple of 14's his phone no is 03 5423862 Cheers
     
  18. LK2628

    LK2628 Member

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    Hi All, another newbie from the colonies, have been reading and enjoying HEF for past 6 months, excellent site. Reading this thread has made me join up, as I was an apprentice diesel mechanic at Cable Price when these were brand new. Didn't do big time on machinery, mainly truck side, but would like to help if possible. Not 100% sure on posting rules, but if you can message me Animal, I can forward names and contacts for some people in Canterbury that may be able to help, including an operator in North Canterbury who still has his original 14C with in excess of 30,000 hours on, last I heard about him. You may have already talked to some of these people, just don't want to put names over web. Remember one of the nut twisting rules was "fixing it is easy, locating the problem is the hard part"! Good luck, keep the old FA moving.
     
  19. Animal

    Animal Well-Known Member

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    LK from "Shakey City", eh? It has been a rough ride since September, hasn't it? Thank you so much for your offer of help. Queenslander sent us a diagram which is fabulous, but contacts are always welcome. The fella in N Cant could be particularly good. I can't private message you (not sure why), perhaps you could private message me? It may be that it can't be done until you have more posts or something, I'm not sure. Thanks again for your offer :) Welcome to HEF
     
  20. willie59

    willie59 Super Moderator

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    Once LK2628 in no longer a Probationary Member, then they will have access to other forum features such as Private Messaging. :)