D6R Engine and Transmission Overheating

[Nige]

Did you get any information regarding the temperatures of the coolant hose out of the radiator.? I see the inlet but not the outlet. Simply the temp numbers from a gun would suffice.

 

[FlintHillsDiesel]

Did you get any information regarding the temperatures of the coolant hose out of the radiator.? I see the inlet but not the outlet. Simply the temp numbers from a gun would suffice.

Did not, just the radiator temps.

 

[Nige]

Did not, just the radiator temps.

The in/out coolant hose temps should be taken, and I would suggest just with a basic IR gun, not a camera. The reason for this is simple. Correct temp difference between inlet & outlet indicates the radiator is performing as designed.

Too low or too high of a temp difference between inlet and outlet could be related to coolant flow (or lack of it - water pump.?) or something plugged somewhere.

Do you have any photos of the outside of the radiator taken from both the engine compartment and also from the front of the tractor.?

One thing I notice was never mentioned. Condition of belts/pulleys/tensioner, etc. Got any photos.?

 

[FlintHillsDiesel]

The in/out coolant hose temps should be taken, and I would suggest just with a basic IR gun, not a camera. The reason for this is simple. Correct temp difference between inlet & outlet indicates the radiator is performing as designed.

Too low or too high of a temp difference between inlet and outlet could be related to coolant flow (or lack of it - water pump.?) or something plugged somewhere.

Do you have any photos of the outside of the radiator taken from both the engine compartment and also from the front of the tractor.?

One thing I notice was never mentioned. Condition of belts/pulleys/tensioner, etc. Got any photos.?

New belts, new water pump, new radiator cores, new thermostat.
Fan speed reading 1258, that seems about right for size of fan and pulleys.

 

[Nige]

Fan speed reading 1258, that seems about right for size of fan and pulleys.

Humour me. I'd still ike to see some photos of the belts/pulleys as well as answers to everything else above. It may be that the solution to the problem could be as a result of small incremental changes in more than one thing.
Replacement water pump OEM Cat or aftermarket.?

 

[FlintHillsDiesel]

Humour me. I'd still ike to see some photos of the belts/pulleys as well as answers to everything else above. It may be that the solution to the problem could be as a result of small incremental changes in more than one thing.
Replacement water pump OEM Cat or aftermarket.?

What specifically are you wanting pictures of on pulleys and belts?
Close ups of the grooves and belt and overall picture?

Water pump was aftermarket.

 

[tctractors]

What is the temp of the air blown Transmission cooler in front of the engine.

 

[FlintHillsDiesel]

What specifically are you wanting pictures of on pulleys and belts?
Close ups of the grooves and belt and overall picture?

Water pump was aftermarket.

I also did about 4-5 stalls in a row and it hardly moved the engine coolant temp, so I'm kinda at a loss what is exactly going on, as its not bad enough to be obvious.

Where exactly is the trans temp sensor?
I looked through SIS a bunch and can't find location of the sensor.

 

[FlintHillsDiesel]

What is the temp of the air blown Transmission cooler in front of the engine.

hydraulic oil cooler I believe?
In the thermal picture above about 130-150'F by the looks of it

 

[tctractors]

Can we do a test of the engine cooling and a study of the regulator working correctly, this is best done as a not involving the transmission so no stall outs in gear but loading the engine carefully with the hydraulic system including the Diff Steering, you should get the engine up to temp and using a heat gun not Flur check the temp of the engine oil filter, dot the filter at the top and bottom and as the water regulator open you will see a sudden drop in the filter temp then it should go up again and cycle like this, it would be good to see a few pictures of the fan and all the fan drive components, did you bother to take any notice about my comment regards the water/oil coolers, if so did you strip them?

 

[FlintHillsDiesel]

Can we do a test of the engine cooling and a study of the regulator working correctly, this is best done as a not involving the transmission so no stall outs in gear but loading the engine carefully with the hydraulic system including the Diff Steering, you should get the engine up to temp and using a heat gun not Flur check the temp of the engine oil filter, dot the filter at the top and bottom and as the water regulator open you will see a sudden drop in the filter temp then it should go up again and cycle like this, it would be good to see a few pictures of the fan and all the fan drive components, did you bother to take any notice about my comment regards the water/oil coolers, if so did you strip them?

Engine oil cooler had been cleaned by retired CAT tech.
The trans cooler has not been stripped yet.
I did look at fan pulley and belts with thermal image and temps seemed normal on that.

 

[Queenslander]

I wonder if aftermarket option works ok with reasonable ambient temps or if that would always cause problems?
Was there any blocked tubes in the old one, anything else changed, or do you think it is all down to the extra gap??

We took delivery of the tractor in the middle of winter and the problem was evident from day one.
The cooler was perfectly clean…in fact, I was very despondent for a while, thinking that we had wasted a heap of time and money for no result and having to continue diagnosing.
The only other thing we did was flush the radiator but it was ELC and clean as well.
So yes, I think it is all down to the extra gap.

 

[FlintHillsDiesel]

I would say check the radiator first. If it is in good condtion and working as it should the temp difference between inlet and outlet should be somewhere around 18 DegF/10 DegC.

Does the screen in the very back on bottom of the trans housing, does that drain the housing?

 

[FlintHillsDiesel]

I thought I would post these photos here as you were all discussing oil coolers.
Our 7H transmission temps steadily rise and stay there, regardless of load and ambient temp.
Engine temp would rise throughout the day, drop with reduced load, rapidly at idle…transmission would only drop 5c after 15 minutes of idling.
Ran some Quickflush through the system and pulled the coolers (aftermarket) this afternoon.. they look clean enough.
My thoughts are that there isn’t enough coolant passing through the tubes of the cooler.
When looking at the tubes of the genuine reman unit we are putting on, there is approximately 2mm clearance between the end of the tubes and the horizontal divider of the manifold.
On the old aftermarket unit the clearance is around 4.2 mm.
On edit…the thickness of the gasket has to be added to these measurements as well.

View attachment 312012
View attachment 312013
View attachment 312015

Thanks for pictures!
Will be pulling the trans cooler this week for sure.
His conditions are about the same, heats up slowly. Once stopped the engine will cool down quick but trans will not.

 

[Nige]

What specifically are you wanting pictures of on pulleys and belts?
Close ups of the grooves and belt and overall picture?

Basically a couple of shots of the pulleys to see wear (if any) and how the belts were sitting in the grooves. Also at the same time a shot of the back side of the fan just to ensure it hasn't been installed backwards (it happens).

I went back and read your first post and the following words struck me - "Told him its likely the transmission overheating and causing the engine overheat as secondary effect."

Soap box mode ON.....

It appears to me as though after conversing with the owner and discussing the repair work that had been done until you came on the scene the conclusion was that something in the transmission system is the cause of the fault and you are looking for evidence to prove that is actually the case.

That's not how "data-driven diagnostics" work. The fact that someone else (retired Cat mechanic or not) has been in to a component or system doesn't automatically mean that it's right. Someone could have unknowngly created an issue (or issues) when they were working on whatever component. IMHO you should not discount as a possible cause ANYTHING that has been touched so far as regards repair work until you perosnally satisfy yourself that it is good after collecting data.

This machine appears to have had the Parts Cannon fired at it big style before you became involved. The careful collection of data before going in there with spanners flying is what's going to point to the root cause and could actually be cheaper in the long run.

The suggestion made above by @tctractors in Post #30 has much merit - warming up the cooling system without stalling the transmission. The results of that test will kill multiple birds with one stone.

Soap box mode OFF.

With that I wish you all the best with the troubleshooting and please post up what the final solution turns out to be.

 

[FlintHillsDiesel]

Basically a couple of shots of the pulleys to see wear (if any) and how the belts were sitting in the grooves. Also at the same time a shot of the back side of the fan just to ensure it hasn't been installed backwards (it happens).

I went back and read your first post and the following words struck me - "Told him its likely the transmission overheating and causing the engine overheat as secondary effect."

Soap box mode ON.....

It appears to me as though after conversing with the owner and discussing the repair work that had been done until you came on the scene the conclusion was that something in the transmission system is the cause of the fault and you are looking for evidence to prove that is actually the case.

That's not how "data-driven diagnostics" work. The fact that someone else (retired Cat mechanic or not) has been in to a component or system doesn't automatically mean that it's right. Someone could have unknowngly created an issue (or issues) when they were working on whatever component. IMHO you should not discount as a possible cause ANYTHING that has been touched so far as regards repair work until you perosnally satisfy yourself that it is good after collecting data.

This machine appears to have had the Parts Cannon fired at it big style before you became involved. The careful collection of data before going in there with spanners flying is what's going to point to the root cause and could actually be cheaper in the long run.

The suggestion made above by @tctractors in Post #30 has much merit - warming up the cooling system without stalling the transmission. The results of that test will kill multiple birds with one stone.

Soap box mode OFF.

With that I wish you all the best with the troubleshooting and please post up what the final solution turns out to be.

Thank you.
The initial thoughts by previous tech was he thinks its engine timing or fuel injection system causing the overheat, which engine has very minimal smoke and seems to run fine - at least to me, haven't been around these CAT engines though.

I thought it was more likely the transmission causing the issue.

Of course have no idea how long this has been going, since he bought it this way.

Appreciate the time writing back.
Will likely get back out to it this Wednesday and check cooling system again and pull the trans cooler.

 

[Nige]

The initial thoughts by previous tech was he thinks its engine timing or fuel injection system causing the overheat, which engine has very minimal smoke and seems to run fine - at least to me, haven't been around these CAT engines though.

I wonder on what basis he thought that.?
I could understand the mentioned issues potentially causing overheating problems in the engine coolant but before tearing into the radiator, water pump, etc, my question would be why the timing & fuel injection system was not checked if it was suspected to be "off".?

Again I went back and looked at the first post but did not find the info I was looking for. It really needs more of the background on the tractor because what went on back then could have significant bearing on what the tractor is doing now, and TBH nothing is off the table at this point - but IMHO it needs positive data before opening the tool chest.

 

[tctractors]

Thank you.
The initial thoughts by previous tech was he thinks its engine timing or fuel injection system causing the overheat, which engine has very minimal smoke and seems to run fine - at least to me, haven't been around these CAT engines though.

I thought it was more likely the transmission causing the issue.

Of course have no idea how long this has been going, since he bought it this way.

Appreciate the time writing back.
Will likely get back out to it this Wednesday and check cooling system again and pull the trans cooler.

The Retired CAT Mechanic must be some chap as to clean the engine oil cooler and not the transmission cooler is a skill I don't understand, its not really something that can be done, I did say to order an Oil Cooler Service Kit I also might have said an Oil Filter as you will be needing one, the coolers mount on some tricky bolts starting on the R Series a bracket that bolts on the bottom cap of the trans cooler via 4 bolts 2 in the cap and 2 in the back case of the engine, then there is 2 bolts that hold the cooler to the cylinder block and 4 bolts that hold the filter head and engine oil cooler to the side of the block plus a hose and oil lines that will need removing to get the cooler pack off the engine, I do them all the time and know all the easy ways to tackle this task so I have reason to comment that you might be getting a bit of duff info, the trans cooler is heavy so eat your Cornflakes before you give it a pop and don't forget to drain the water, it is best done by turning the heater hose taps off and then popping free a hose and doing the tap thing, just thought I would say I am 68 and work 7 days a week on these things so have picked up a bit on them, Flur is handy but I find the Heat Gun more matched to doing temp problems, I do have Flur on my phone and it is handy so is a Beer.

 

[Nige]

And there speaks a man who has "been there, done that, seen the video and got the t-shirt" years ago. If there are any tricks to be had on a D6R, Tony knows what they are......