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D6c cat loss of oil pressure

Hobbytime

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2016
Messages
709
Location
usa
HOBBY do you work in my fuel shop?? I got a guy like that.. except he NEVER LEARNS from the mistakes and does the SAME THING over & over again.. I guess that's why he got fired last week..
15 years to late, if you ask anyone working there..
I have no words about this thread that I haven't expressed after the 1st or 2nd page of the start of this thread.. & here we are 19 pages, 378 posts, a year in, & still the same problem different engine. I called it from the git-go..
LOL..I think everyone has a friend like that....knowing ones limitations is good, sometimes you go out on a limb if you know the worse case scenario and cost( whats the most you can lose)..otherwise I will seek the wisdom of those who know..and follow it...:),,,and hopefully pick up some knowledge on the way..like others have said before the willing of the op to take the project on and do it yourself is hard to pass up hoping to save some $$...I cant fault the guy for trying, I would do the same, but again, I would double and triple check my work against manuals and people that have done it many times before successfully.. I hope the story has a happy ending...
 

Scrub Puller

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2009
Messages
3,481
Location
Gladstone Queensland Australia
Yair . . . ,

Bloody Hell !!! I come here for my morning hit of HEF and stumble into this.

First off to tctractors. I understand your feelings mate but bloody hell . . . your demonstrated depth of knowledge is viewed on this board with absolute respect. If you go you will be missed by so many of us who value your advise and the way you post it with that special way you have with "verbs". (grins)

This whole episode has been a fiasco with the original posters attitude being arrogant at best. In his life time he may have only had the one failure of this magnitude but doesn't seem to realise there are those who have been through it all a hundred times before.

I have lost all sympathy for him and couldn't give a damn . . . it does seem a pity though that such an arrogant up himself arse hole may be about to screw up a perfectly good engine.

Cheers.
 

Junkyard

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2016
Messages
3,636
Location
Claremore, OK
Occupation
Field Mechanic
tctractors...... please sir do not leave the site based on two people with um how do I say it....unique personalities. As far as the feller calling you a troll more or less, he didn't think before he did it. You have been on here going on 10 years, just short of 2,000 posts. ALL of which make us wish we were you. Hell I even asked my wife how long I could go awol to come learn from you. The man who badged you an "internet expert" hasn't read your thread and has offered only 84 posts himself. I would care to wager most were of similar nature.

You are way too valuable a resource for us to do without. Even as mouthy and supposedly thick skinned New Yorkers claim to be they can't handle a man from the other side of the pond!

Sometimes the thing that needs fixed isn't the machine itself.....

Junkyard
 

etd66ss

Senior Member
Joined
May 14, 2015
Messages
270
Location
Lockport NY
I dunno, I read this whole thread, I'm sure tc is very knowledgeable, but he seems to kick ppl in the balls as much as he tries to help them (at least I get that impression from this thread anyways), all the while saying he's not really kicking them in the balls. Maybe his humor is not coming through in text, dunno. I also get that the OP seems to have some issues "following orders" frustrating those trying to help.

I hope the new engine doesn't have any damage.

I guess I'll shut up and just watch from now on.
 

Junkyard

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2016
Messages
3,636
Location
Claremore, OK
Occupation
Field Mechanic
I don't think he ever intends to kick anybody anywhere. He's just matter of fact and to the point, it's his way and sometimes his verbs seem to be a completely different vernacular even though it's still English haha. He's done all of this so many times I suppose it's frustrating because in his mind he KNOWS exactly what to do, why etc. Just one of those deals I suppose.

I hope it all works out for the machine owner and tc stays here!

Junkyard
 

kshansen

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2012
Messages
11,164
Location
Central New York, USA
Occupation
Retired Mechanic in Stone Quarry
You forgot all the empty bear cans you would have needed to melt down to make the pistons! Just emptying them would have added a couple days to the project:p

I hope everyone is better at reading than I am at spelling, those were supposed to be BEER CANS!
 

kshansen

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2012
Messages
11,164
Location
Central New York, USA
Occupation
Retired Mechanic in Stone Quarry
well they say an education costs...this time around its whatever time and $$ he put into the rebuild
On this point what I will say is it is fine to "Learn from your mistakes" but why not learn before you make the mistakes?

I mean if there is a cast iron frying pan setting on the stove and three people say "Be careful the handle is hot!"

A smart person would say thanks and reach for a pot holder to move the pan. Now someone not so smart might grab hold and pick up the pan then when his hand was hurting he'd drop it on the floor and damage the floor and possibly injure his foot at the same time.

Both way they guy was able to know the handle of the pan was too hot to touch, but if he listened to the "experts" things would have worked out much less painfully!

Now lacking any experts a smart person would maybe bring his hand close but not touch the handle to determine if it was hot or if he was a high tech nerd hit it with his infrared thermometer and know the temperature to two decimal places. Either way no personal injuries! As the saying goes "There's more than one way to skin a Cat!" all puns intended. Just try not to let the Cat skin you!
 

old-iron-habit

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2012
Messages
4,233
Location
Moose Lake, MN
Occupation
Retired Cons't. Supt./Hospitals
Hey TC, I sincerely hope you meant that you are through with only this post. In a lighter note, I need you man. I occasionally chat with one of the Queens finest in our local coffee shop and I sometimes memorize your verbs and use them on him. He really enjoys my attempts.

I do hope we find out how this turns out.
 

oarwhat

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 14, 2009
Messages
840
Location
buffalo,n.y.
Hey TC, I sincerely hope you meant that you are through with only this post. In a lighter note, I need you man. I occasionally chat with one of the Queens finest in our local coffee shop and I sometimes memorize your verbs and use them on him. He really enjoys my attempts.

I do hope we find out how this turns out.

I agree I hope you're only bailing out on this post!!! You've helped me a few times and amused me many times. Amused is the wrong word entertained is better. Your knowledge and "verbs" are the best. I like trying to understand them. I haven't seen any posts on your thread recently I hope you update it soon.
 

CavinJim

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2016
Messages
170
Location
Missouri
One of the most remarkable things about this forum is the mixture of expertise--from journeyman master spanner turners to operators and owners down to young professionals in the field and even us rank amateurs and hobbyists. I'm on my fourth piece of old yellow iron, and I consider it an honor and privilege when folks the like of TC and Scrub Puller respond to one of my posts! If the opportunity came about, I'd happily volunteer to clean grease and carry tools for days just to be able to watch y'all work. DMiller--since your close, some day I might just send you a message and ask if I can stop by to see the old Allis.

That said--I can't help but commiserate with Steve. Though big Cats are fairly new to me, wrenching isn't--and my brother is a mechanic like few others. He had his own shop for awhile (unfortunately, his business skills aren't on the same level as his mechanicing skills...) and I would visit him there from time to time. One day he was finishing up an engine replacement on an ambulance--it was a rush job and he had it done in less than 3 days. Problem was, the first short block he got turned out to be bad (I think it had a crack) and he didn't discover it till everything was bolted up and he fired it up. Out came the engine, new block, swap all the parts, back in and refitted and out the door. That was two complete engine removals, rebuilds, and reinstalls in less than 3 days. My point is--should or could he have caught the bad block? I dunno. It was a rare thing and he ended up eating the cost. But I figure if it happened to him, it could happen to anyone. So..... do we know what's wrong with Steve's engine and the oil pressure? No. He's doing his best, which may not be as good as the worst of the likes of TC, but by golly, he DID actually have the engine running! What would the reaction have been if the oil pressure was fine and he posted a video of it running well and everything working? Lots of congratulations I'd like to think! Could be, maybe he got a bad block, a faulty pump, he missed something somewhere along the line--and yes, he should listen better. But you have to admire the guy! C'mon--there's not a fella here who hasn't bungled something sometime and ended up with egg on his face! My guess is that Steve saw the photo of the idler gear and started doubting himself, that he left it out or something and wanted to see for sure so off came the oil pan (something he was very reluctant and remiss to do). Yeah, he probably should have just pulled the filter and cranked the engine--but look at some of the comments that folks had about cranking an engine without oil pressure! I can see where that would scare someone out of cranking it. Caught between two bad choices he went the way that would do the least potential damage. He was getting advice to do an oil transfusion from another running engine, using air pressure to circulate oil, and so on. Then TC says "I would be reluctant to blow or mess about trying to stuff oil in all sorts of odd spots....". Think about that--he's getting conflicting advise from all around and so decides to do the one thing that won't hurt. And gets yelled at.

Now I'm not defending him entirely--I've been following this thread for quite some time because I've found it to be highly entertaining and educational--a rare combination. But I have an immense respect for Steve's ability to shrug off the setbacks and keep at it. Reminds me of a fellow around here that goes around smiling far too much.

But--I think that edt66ss went WAY out of bounds in his response to TC. That was entirely uncalled for.

Sorry I ramble sometimes--but it's been thinking about this all day.

-cavin
 

Hobbytime

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2016
Messages
709
Location
usa
you summed it up the best from both sides of the coin...:) and again hopefully this has a happy, not too expensive ending...
 

Welder Dave

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2014
Messages
12,536
Location
Canada
To quote Spock, "The needs of many outweigh the needs of the few"! It would be a real shame to lose any of the extremely knowledgeable folks on this forum. Having been called out on other forums for basically telling it like it is based on years of experience, I can see where TC is coming from. I have stopped posting on other forums for short periods but still read the posts. A poster asks for help, you give your opinion, someone else disagrees and calls you out.

Many times the person who's called me out puts their own spin on things to suit their own agenda. Example, someone is looking for advice on welding and what welder to buy. I suggest taking a course from a community college or finding an experienced welder, who would be willing to teach you, and spending a little more to buy a DC welder because a better machine will cut the learning curve way down and be way less frustrating, especially for a beginner. Then someone comes along and says you don't need to waste money on a course, you can buy a couple books and look it all up on the internet. An AC buzz box will do all the welding you ever need and last forever. Dave is just trying to spend your money for you!

No, I'm not trying to spend the persons money. I'm trying to save them from a ton of frustration and selling their machine 6 month's later at a loss because they figured welding is too hard for them to learn. Welding is something you can't learn from a book, you have to actually pick up the stinger and weld. Books can help with what to do but a book doesn't have the sparks and smoke and sound that tells you what you're doing right or wrong.

What brought me back was a couple things. Seeing people need genuine help with their welding and reading ridiculous suggestions from self proclaimed expert welders who have never had any schooling and think an apprenticeship is just a waste of time. The biggest reason I went back though was all the comments from people appreciating my experience and saying they look forward to my posts! Hope TC stays around. He tells it like it is but knows his stuff and that is invaluable!
 

JPV

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2015
Messages
756
Location
S.W. Washington
I also have been following this thread with interest, I look after a few chunks of old cat iron with 3306s and have been learning. I am very curious to find out what is wrong here. I have overhauled 2 N 14 cummins and 1 3406e cat that I have started from new. I have never prelubed but always wished I did when I hit the key for the first time and watched the oil pressure guage with a sense of dread. I have counted to twenty before seeing oil pressure once it started after cranking for several 30 second cycles trying to get pressure up and not seeing any. One old timer who had rebuilt hundreds of engines told me "just fire it up, it's going to run or it won't, just get it over with". I would say if TC says it should have had pressure within 10 revolutions I would take that seriously. The 3306s that we have generally get pressure up 5 to 7 seconds after they fire under normal conditions. I am not sure what I would do if I was Steve but getting another opinion from a knowledgeable mechanic that can see it rather then read about it is a good idea!
 

DMiller

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
Messages
16,575
Location
Hermann, Missouri
Occupation
Cheap "old" Geezer
Under normal conditions the engines retain oil in the rifle galleries bearings and other regions so oil just has to come to pressure not refill and make pressure. Still an engine running 10-20 seconds awaiting pump to draw and feed is a LONG LONG time. I made up my prelube tank several decades ago, IHC CO4070B air tank off a wreck. 2" pipe nipple welded with wire feed, simple cap and a shrader valve tucked in a factory hole. End bell had a delivery port so a shut off valve, 1/4" nylon tube and a assortment of odd compression fittings I can pretty well pressure up any engine. Been wrenching since 1975 for a paycheck, only ate one so far; knocking on my wooden head. Easy enough to add a cheap pressure gauge as well as more ports, left the drain valve in it so can stop the action or de-pressurize the tank. Plenty of junk yards around to cabbage upon one.
 

kshansen

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2012
Messages
11,164
Location
Central New York, USA
Occupation
Retired Mechanic in Stone Quarry
I am curious to know percentage wise,just how many of the mechanics on this forum actually prelude a rebuild engine?THANKS
Well where I worked we never started a rebuilt engine without cranking it over with fuel shut off till we saw oil pressure. Quite often would hook up the air powered oil pump and let it run for a couple minutes before starting.

This did not take the place of either coating all bearing surfaces with either engine oil or assembly lube while being put together.

Then there are the majority of new machines that we had after around 1999 those came right from the Cat factory with electric pumps that will not let you crank the engine until they see around 5 psi oil pressure. This is not just after a rebuild but every time it is shutdown for over a couple hours.

And the big Cat gensets we had way back in the early 1970's had either hand powered or electric pump to build up a minimum amount of oil pressure before stating. Those gensets were set up to go to full rpm on starting so it was critical for them to have oil pressure right from the start.
 

JPV

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2015
Messages
756
Location
S.W. Washington
I should say everything was coated in either lubriplate or motor oil, and yes 20 seconds is an eternity when that thing is running and no pressure, my point was that it was fine and the others also without being prelubed. I guess I can't say how long I would be willing to let one run until I panicked and tore it back apart, I shudder at the thought!
I like your prelube setup DMiller, I am going to copy that idea, I have everything I need already.
 

StanRUS

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 7, 2016
Messages
767
Location
Cal
I am curious to know percentage wise,just how many of the mechanics on this forum actually prelude a rebuild engine?THANKS
TC is correct, 3306 should almost instantly pump oil! Simple check remove elbow-hardline coming out block to oil filter base. Use remote starter switch to crank engine. NO oil, check oil pump relief valve! SIS instructions SENR55590062 remove, rebuild 3304-3306 vehicular oil pump.
Pre-lubing? Large displacement inline 6s V8-V16s yep! Oil pressure before cranking engine.
Cummins V12-1710Cid per-service manual instructions...use filter head with by-passes blocked from opening; check injector rocker arm bushings for scoring after 1st start up. LONG journey for the oil to travel compared to a 3306.
Delco-Remy manufactured starters with engine oil pre-lube gear pump built on #6956N or Cat#OR4998. Cat's service tool is made from a 'weed sprayer' with air pressure regulator, decal and pricey $$$$.
[W]e have used coolant pre-heating before 1st start up, even before adjusting valve clearances.
Want to know if you've done an excellent rebuild? PULL the engine apart and check after dyno torture...
 

GregsHD

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2014
Messages
557
Location
Mahood Falls, BC
Occupation
Self Employed HD Mechanic
I always crank an engine until oil pressure builds before allowing it to start. I prefer to decompress if possible (leave g plugs/injectors out) to relieve some of the strain on the starter and spin over faster. Plenty of assembly lube is my piece of mind during cranking, I don't like that sticky **** as it adds a serious amount of resistance, lubriplate is what I use.

The only engine I've ever had an issue not building oil pressure cranking was a complete reman 4bt I installed in a Case skid steer. After leaving an air oiler like described above on it for a few minutes to prime, it build pressure just fine and gave no issues.

If possible I prefer to test run any out of frame rebuilds I do on the shop floor, just for piece of mind incase there is an oil leak or unforseen issue that could be a royal pain to address once installed, and when installing in the field you know it's ready to rock!
 

Junkyard

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2016
Messages
3,636
Location
Claremore, OK
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Field Mechanic
I never start a fresh engine or one of unknown condition until I can generate oil pressure by cranking or some other means. It may not be an internal issue it could be an external hose or any number of other issues. On our race motors we go to the extreme. Dry sump tank has heaters on it, we heat the oil up to 180-200 and then run the oil pump with a drill motor until we feel the filter get warm. Meanwhile a pump is circulating warm water. We never run one to warm it, it stays warm and we bust it off when it's time to get down to business. Of course our schedule to freshen the motor is around 35 maybe 40 hours. The moral is, in any engine, hydraulic system etc if there is a way to test proper operation etc before starting, reassembling or working do so. The more deliberate you can be about things the better off you are. You learn something with each O/H and issue you encounter. If you have time to do it twice you have time to do it right the first time.

I truly applaud your perseverance and foresight to at least come get some guidance.

Junkyard
 
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