Considering a CTL/MTL

[GManBart]

Hey all,

Your suggestions were really helpful in the past when I was shopping for my dozer and backhoe, so I figured it was worth asking about CTLs this time.

As background, I have 20 acres that I've been fixing up, clearing, building a barn/shop on, making a shooting range, etc. My equipment doesn't leave the property, so it's all weekend warrior type work. I have a 50hp utility tractor for light grading and normal brush clearing, etc (it doesn't have a loader). I bought the dozer and hoe because I had some bigger dirt projects I knew would take a year or two, and those are pretty much done.

Now that the majority of my dirt moving is done, I'm considering selling the dozer and backhoe and getting a CTL. I don't anticipate needing a dozer or a hoe, so it's really just the loader function I need. I'll be doing smaller dirt projects, moving mulch, putting in a decent size garden, dragging trees out of the woods....in short, a little bit of everything. I also have a regular need to lift heavy stuff using pallet forks....1,000lb mower deck, lathe, knee mill, etc. In fact, my vise restoration hobby has even gotten me into 250lb+ monsters that needed to be loaded on a pallet.

I guess I want something of a jack-of-all-trades that will let me move some dirt, mulch, act like a forklift, let me lift tree sections, etc, etc.

CAT is by far the closest dealer (25min) and then I have a Bobcat dealer about 40min away and a Kubota dealer about 45min away. I'm not even sure about Tak or ASV honestly...might have a dealer, but i haven't looked yet.

Would a CAT 289 or Kubota SLV90 be overkill? I don't really want something too small, and I'll still want to be able to load my SA dump truck which is pretty tall for an SA truck. When I look at the machines the size of a CAT 259 they just seem small, but I know they can do a lot of work.

I'm thinking used, but fairly new....like under 2,000 hours if I were to pick a ballpark.

Feel free to fire away with questions for clarification, or suggestions. I'm not in a rush, but I was thinking selling the hoe and dozer would be best in the Spring, so I've got time to compare, try a few machines, etc.

 

[movindirt]

Nothing is overkill depending on your budget, you'll spend a lot more to get a bigger machine, but if you're just having fun with it more or less... go for as big of a machine as you can get. The Cat CTL's are good machines, I'd either get a Cat or a Kubota personally, Cat has the best parts and service, Kubota's are solid machines.

 

[05rammer]

I would highly suggest a Tak. Big cabs all kinds of power and are built like a tank, that's all we run at work.

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[oceanobob]

Heard the tracks can cost some dollars, but I doubt the used market price reflects the actual depreciated condition of the tracks. Operating cost of these machines is documented to be higher than a rubber tired skid steer but the conditions and the ease of operating may dictate preference.

Maybe articulated small loader could also solve? Access into and out of the machine whilst rigging and setting dunnage etc would be way easier than climbing out of cab of CTL (also comment applies to skid steer) with load in process. And the loader is able to load the SA dump truck.

For handling pallets and loading trucks, a yard tired standard forklift w side shift would be hard to not select. Hard to beat a standard forklift* when it comes to pallet moving and manipulating things mechanical. *w modern t/c trans; not man clutch (old school)
~
These my observations only: have not had ownership experience with these machines. I usually rent something a few times to see how it fits.

 

[winger_bros]

CTL experience

own two CAT pieces - 252B2 and 420F, and two Bobcat T770 and E55 - bought the 2012 T770 used with 1400 hrs and new tracks - bar style camoplast I think. I 'bundled' the two bobcats in the purchase as I was really only looking for the E55, but they accepted my offer. Anyway, I cannot say enough about the track machine, any track machine compared to a wheel style. Amazing machines. Key is making sure maintenance has happened as the under carriages wear and are not cheap to repair. I carry the extended warranty - Cat is cheaper than Bobcat for that by quite a bit. For my 252B2 the extended was $1500 for 4yrs, the T770 was $2500 for two years. The T770 is amazing in dirt and snow, simply amazing push power and working strength. I have had some control/swashplate issues (again now) and the warranty expired (probably my fault for not keeping attention, but the dealer didn't either). I am considering a trade to new Bobcat, Cat, and maybe Kubota. I am partial to Cat as I worked for two dealers in the 1980s and know how they build and service their machines. Their preventative maintenance schedule is formal and thorough and I have seen nothing like it for the Bobcat - so I made my own. I know some will laugh at the extended warranty cost and figure it is not worth it. However, one hydraulic failure or one cylinder repair and it will eat that warranty cost plus more - not to mention a fuel system fix.
So, yes to a track machine, like the CAT and Bobcat - would consider the Kubota and even a Deere. Good luck.

 

[StumpyWally]

I guess I want something of a jack-of-all-trades that will let me move some dirt, mulch, act like a forklift, let me lift tree sections, etc, etc.

Maybe articulated small loader could also solve? Access into and out of the machine whilst rigging and setting dunnage etc would be way easier than climbing out of cab of CTL (also comment applies to skid steer) with load in process. And the loader is able to load the SA dump truck.

First, I looked at your vise restoration web site...those are some REALLY nice lookin' vises that you've restored!!

I kinda wanted the same thing out of a SSL/CTL that you're after back in 2012. I finally settled on a NH L220 (w/ cab/heat/AC & lots of extras) with over-the-tire Camoplast rubber tracks, that I leave on all the time. I had to go new, since I couldn't find anything used that wasn't in terrible shape...I didn't want to spend my time working on the machine. I knew going in that the machine was a compromise, but it was the best I could come up with at the time. I was hoping that it would replace my compact diesel utility tractor for most jobs except lawn mowing.

Having owned & used it now for about 5 years, I've found that except for snow plowing & other work when the weather is cold, my compact diesel tractor is still my goto machine for most things. The biggest reason is that getting in/out of the cab of the SSL is such a pain...& I need to get in & out a lot since I usually work by myself. Don't underestimate your need to do this. And getting in/out while the boom is part way up (to adjust something on the pallet forks, for instance) is virtually impossible, never mind VERY dangerous. For this reason alone I would urge to consider the only side-entry SSL/CTL on the market, which is made by JCB (Volvo's are just rebadged JCB's). I think their wheeled machines are better than their CTL's, which are VERY heavy & don't have any outstanding undercarriage features in my opinion. A wheeled machine would not work for me, since my ground is wet & I need the flotation of tracks.

The next best entry/exit machine is one with a slide up door, not a hinged door (like my NH & all Cat's & most other brands). The 2 slide up door brands that I would consider are Kubota & Takeuchi. The other advantage that these 2 brands have is that their CTLs are designed to be a CTL, with well designed & dedicated-CTL frames. Particularly the Tak.

But, with regards to your tree work, NONE of these brands (& most other brands as well) do NOT offer any rear mount drawbar or hitch, let alone a rear winch. That's one of the reasons I settled on a NH, because both NH (& Case, which is made in the same factory) offered a rear-mount hitch. I added a 2" receiver tube to the hitch, & I use a receiver-bar-mounted electric Warn winch on the back of my SSL to help me retrieve logs that are in places too wet to drive to. And to pull my self out when I get stuck (which happens frequently). The receiver mount setup also let's me swap the winch to the back of my compact utility tractor, & to the back of my pickup truck, both of which have been very handy.

Of course you could always fabricate your own rear mount hitch &/or winch. Only Takeuchi makes this at least easier because their CTLs include threaded mounting holes on the back, which are actually designed for mounting a ripper which they offer.

And lastly, if have wet conditions & are looking for the very lowest ground pressure machine, then you should look at CAT MTLs (like a 257) or an ASV. The Cat uses the same undercarriage as the ASV, but is not otherwise designed for it like the ASV. Hence, I think the ASV is better balanced & has much more ground clearance. But dealer support & parts availability for Cat is first rate, whereas ASV is questionable, at best. But neither one has a slide-up door, nor any support for a rear hitch (although older ASV's did include a rear-mounted receiver hitch, but the new ones have dropped that...big mistake in my opinion.)

I've gone on enough...there is NO perfect SSL/CTL, unfortunately.

 

[Ct Farmer]

Though it is an older model and lacks many of the comfort features of new machines I cannot say enough good things about my ASV. We tried every make and model track and wheel machine. Bought it new and after 6000 hours very little has gone wrong. Mostly things you would expect to just wear out.

We use it on a wholsale nursery and its primary purpose is running a tree spade. We routinely run this machine at near tipping load with the big spade on and it just eats it up.

We have run this machine through wet areas, ok, swamps and mud, where you can't walk with mud coming in the cab and it keeps going. The big advantage of the original ASV suspension is that it floats and conforms to the ground to maintain traction and a smooth ride.

It is very stable and has an amazinly low CG. You need to remember when you get on other things that it isn't the ASV.

One thing that is very import is the 360 degree visabilty. We work in tight places and many other machines with the high rear frame just won't work.

About the only thing that might be a downside is the travel speed is much lower than a wheeled skid steer. But we just deal with it.

 

[GManBart]

Heard the tracks can cost some dollars, but I doubt the used market price reflects the actual depreciated condition of the tracks. Operating cost of these machines is documented to be higher than a rubber tired skid steer but the conditions and the ease of operating may dictate preference.

Maybe articulated small loader could also solve? Access into and out of the machine whilst rigging and setting dunnage etc would be way easier than climbing out of cab of CTL (also comment applies to skid steer) with load in process. And the loader is able to load the SA dump truck.

For handling pallets and loading trucks, a yard tired standard forklift w side shift would be hard to not select. Hard to beat a standard forklift* when it comes to pallet moving and manipulating things mechanical. *w modern t/c trans; not man clutch (old school)
~
These my observations only: have not had ownership experience with these machines. I usually rent something a few times to see how it fits.

I think a small articulated loader would be great for much of my work, but not so great heading into the woods where I drag big trees from....some pretty wet areas. I've already gone there in my neighbor's T200 and it was no problem at all.

I should have said I'm also considering adding a standard forklift as well. Both of my neighbors have them, and you're right...nothing really compares for that sort of work.

 

[GManBart]

First, I looked at your vise restoration web site...those are some REALLY nice lookin' vises that you've restored!!

I kinda wanted the same thing out of a SSL/CTL that you're after back in 2012. I finally settled on a NH L220 (w/ cab/heat/AC & lots of extras) with over-the-tire Camoplast rubber tracks, that I leave on all the time. I had to go new, since I couldn't find anything used that wasn't in terrible shape...I didn't want to spend my time working on the machine. I knew going in that the machine was a compromise, but it was the best I could come up with at the time. I was hoping that it would replace my compact diesel utility tractor for most jobs except lawn mowing.

Having owned & used it now for about 5 years, I've found that except for snow plowing & other work when the weather is cold, my compact diesel tractor is still my goto machine for most things. The biggest reason is that getting in/out of the cab of the SSL is such a pain...& I need to get in & out a lot since I usually work by myself. Don't underestimate your need to do this. And getting in/out while the boom is part way up (to adjust something on the pallet forks, for instance) is virtually impossible, never mind VERY dangerous. For this reason alone I would urge to consider the only side-entry SSL/CTL on the market, which is made by JCB (Volvo's are just rebadged JCB's). I think their wheeled machines are better than their CTL's, which are VERY heavy & don't have any outstanding undercarriage features in my opinion. A wheeled machine would not work for me, since my ground is wet & I need the flotation of tracks.

The next best entry/exit machine is one with a slide up door, not a hinged door (like my NH & all Cat's & most other brands). The 2 slide up door brands that I would consider are Kubota & Takeuchi. The other advantage that these 2 brands have is that their CTLs are designed to be a CTL, with well designed & dedicated-CTL frames. Particularly the Tak.

But, with regards to your tree work, NONE of these brands (& most other brands as well) do NOT offer any rear mount drawbar or hitch, let alone a rear winch. That's one of the reasons I settled on a NH, because both NH (& Case, which is made in the same factory) offered a rear-mount hitch. I added a 2" receiver tube to the hitch, & I use a receiver-bar-mounted electric Warn winch on the back of my SSL to help me retrieve logs that are in places too wet to drive to. And to pull my self out when I get stuck (which happens frequently). The receiver mount setup also let's me swap the winch to the back of my compact utility tractor, & to the back of my pickup truck, both of which have been very handy.

Of course you could always fabricate your own rear mount hitch &/or winch. Only Takeuchi makes this at least easier because their CTLs include threaded mounting holes on the back, which are actually designed for mounting a ripper which they offer.

And lastly, if have wet conditions & are looking for the very lowest ground pressure machine, then you should look at CAT MTLs (like a 257) or an ASV. The Cat uses the same undercarriage as the ASV, but is not otherwise designed for it like the ASV. Hence, I think the ASV is better balanced & has much more ground clearance. But dealer support & parts availability for Cat is first rate, whereas ASV is questionable, at best. But neither one has a slide-up door, nor any support for a rear hitch (although older ASV's did include a rear-mounted receiver hitch, but the new ones have dropped that...big mistake in my opinion.)

I've gone on enough...there is NO perfect SSL/CTL, unfortunately.

First off, thanks for the kind words about my vise restorations!

You've got a lot of good stuff in your post, and some of your comments are things I pretty much settled upon myself, but didn't want to mention for fear of biasing people's replies.

I'm definitely going to be keeping my utility tractor (50hp Massey) for general duties around the property. I mostly use it for mowing the fields (zero turn for the lawn) and dragging downed trees out to where I can work on them. In some cases I will cut the trees into 10-12ft sections, then load them onto the pallet fork on my backhoe and drive them out to where I pile them for later work. When I can't do that I just drag them out to where I can get at them.

I don't burn wood for heat, but have a lot of dead Ash trees I'm planning to turn into firewood for nearly free money. I've got a perfect spot on a well-traveled road to stack firewood, and a lot of folks in the area heat with wood, so it's a good match. In short, I've got a lot of trees I want to get to but don't have any pressure to do so....I can do it on my schedule. I do have some wet/low areas that would make a wheeled skid steer or articulated loader impractical, but I don't think I need to worry about the lowest possible ground pressure. I think I'd prefer the more durable undercarriage of a CTL and deal with the less pleasant ride (not like I'm in it for hours on end to start with).

I do like the idea of the side-door on the JCB units, and hadn't seriously thought of them before, but I'll have to see if there's a dealer nearby. I definitely like the ability to get out with a raised load, and I will not go under a raised load with a conventional machine...not happening.

Of the conventional machines, I do like the idea of the slide up door, and that was one of the reasons I started looking at Kubota. I don't have anything against a Tak, but have to look into the one local dealer to see if they really carry/support them, or they just have them as a side brand they carry.

I'm a reasonably skilled welder, so I think I can fabricate a rear hitch setup if I want to add a winch, or something similar.

I'm probably over-thinking it, and any of the machines would do the job, but I'd hate to get a year down the road and think "oh, I wish I had considered that when I was buying" and be stuck.

As always, I think I need to get some seat time in a few models and use that as a way to evaluate dealers as well, but this is helpful!

 

[DirtCrawler]

Doesn't some of the Terex skids come with a roll up door. ? Might be an option if so. However I don't know how reliable they are or how they are for getting parts when needed.

 

[GManBart]

Doesn't some of the Terex skids come with a roll up door. ? Might be an option if so. However I don't know how reliable they are or how they are for getting parts when needed.

Not sure...I'll do some research.

 

[StumpyWally]

Doesn't some of the Terex skids come with a roll up door. ? Might be an option if so. However I don't know how reliable they are or how they are for getting parts when needed.

Terex's were made by ASV when Terex owned the controlling interest in ASV. But I don't think they had roll-up doors.

Now, Manitex owns the controlling interest in ASV, see their web site here: http://asvllc.com/

 

[05rammer]

Terex did have roll up doors

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[GManBart]

Sorry....been busy lately, and just getting back to this.

Since I'm not worried about the lowest ground pressure, and I don't really care about the smoothest ride, it would seem a CTL would be better for me than an MTL. I'd like either a side-entry or slide up door so that pretty much limits me to a JCB, Kubota or Takeuchi for machines that are relatively new....or am I missing something?

 

[Hysert]

Hey guys new to the site!!!

We run a Kubota SVL90, and love it!! Comfort and visibility are great.. power is comparable to the others, after all most are using orange motors anyway? with a nearly 6k lbs lift capacity it really never has an issue... only wish it was Alittle faster on its feet.. ours has 2000hrs and still on original undercarriage!!! Second set of tracks! Hope this helps your decision!

 

[GManBart]

Hey guys new to the site!!!

We run a Kubota SVL90, and love it!! Comfort and visibility are great.. power is comparable to the others, after all most are using orange motors anyway? with a nearly 6k lbs lift capacity it really never has an issue... only wish it was Alittle faster on its feet.. ours has 2000hrs and still on original undercarriage!!! Second set of tracks! Hope this helps your decision!

That does help. I'm trying to stick to machines under 2,500 hours and know enough to really look at the UC, so that gives me some idea of what I should expect to see if the hours are correct.

 

[GManBart]

So it's been 18 months and I finally have an update. I wound up buying a Kubota SVL90-2 cab/heat/AC, std and high-flow aux hydraulics, hydraulic quick attach, 2-spd trans, and it's got 2,166 hours on it. The tracks were pretty worn so I worked a new set into the deal and it wound up being $300 cheaper to have them install them than I could just buy them directly. The cab is really clean, everything works and the worst I can say about it is that the loader arms have a bit of hazing to the paint that might buff out.

The dealer took it in trade from a small company owned by two brothers and claims it's a one-owner machine. I don't doubt that given how clean it is knowing how random employees aren't always easy on machinery. I'm going to get a shredder for it as well as a snow thrower and it's going to be my general property maintenance machine going forward.

I'm always worried buying a used machine, but I couldn't justify spending more than double on something new and I couldn't find anything concerning on this machine. My hope was to be able to get a machine for $40K and I came within $500 so my wife isn't too mad at me!

I added a set of new 5,500lb forks from the dealer and snapped a quick pic right after it got dropped off. Fingers crossed it's as reliable as my backhoe and dozer were!

 

[ianjoub]

First off, thanks for the kind words about my vise restorations!

You've got a lot of good stuff in your post, and some of your comments are things I pretty much settled upon myself, but didn't want to mention for fear of biasing people's replies.

I'm definitely going to be keeping my utility tractor (50hp Massey) for general duties around the property. I mostly use it for mowing the fields (zero turn for the lawn) and dragging downed trees out to where I can work on them. In some cases I will cut the trees into 10-12ft sections, then load them onto the pallet fork on my backhoe and drive them out to where I pile them for later work. When I can't do that I just drag them out to where I can get at them.

I don't burn wood for heat, but have a lot of dead Ash trees I'm planning to turn into firewood for nearly free money. I've got a perfect spot on a well-traveled road to stack firewood, and a lot of folks in the area heat with wood, so it's a good match. In short, I've got a lot of trees I want to get to but don't have any pressure to do so....I can do it on my schedule. I do have some wet/low areas that would make a wheeled skid steer or articulated loader impractical, but I don't think I need to worry about the lowest possible ground pressure. I think I'd prefer the more durable undercarriage of a CTL and deal with the less pleasant ride (not like I'm in it for hours on end to start with).

I do like the idea of the side-door on the JCB units, and hadn't seriously thought of them before, but I'll have to see if there's a dealer nearby. I definitely like the ability to get out with a raised load, and I will not go under a raised load with a conventional machine...not happening.

Of the conventional machines, I do like the idea of the slide up door, and that was one of the reasons I started looking at Kubota. I don't have anything against a Tak, but have to look into the one local dealer to see if they really carry/support them, or they just have them as a side brand they carry.

I'm a reasonably skilled welder, so I think I can fabricate a rear hitch setup if I want to add a winch, or something similar.

I'm probably over-thinking it, and any of the machines would do the job, but I'd hate to get a year down the road and think "oh, I wish I had considered that when I was buying" and be stuck.

As always, I think I need to get some seat time in a few models and use that as a way to evaluate dealers as well, but this is helpful!

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