Case 580C starter

[Greg in KY]

I bought a 580C about a year ago. It has the Case motor.

Since I bought it the starter would click maybe 5 maybe 50 times before it would engage. It never failed to start. The previous owner said it had been like that for a while.

The other day I decided to fix it -assuming it was the solenoid.

I had the starter rebuilt at a local starter/alteration shop that does good work. They said it tested OK but changed the solenoid anyway based on what I told them it was doing.

I put it back on and it does the exact same thing. When it "clicks" but does not engage- it does make a solid, firm "click" . I checked the schematics in the service manual and found the is nothing but connections between the starter button and the starter. The connections in the dash feel good and tight. I didn't take the time to find out where the neutral switch is located.

Now my 2nd best guess is that there should be shims or something on the mount for the starter - but - I have jumped it with a screwdriver 3-4 times at the starter and is engages perfectly.


Any idea of what the problem is?

Thanks, Greg

 

[ScottAR]

If it still has the neutral start switch, that's a place to start. On the D
series it's on the right hand side of the shuttle case towards the top. Should be two wires going to it. I dunno if the C and D are the same but that's where mine is. Could also be voltage drop to the start solenoid. Had that happen on a different make tractor. Verify voltage to the "go" wire on the solenoid and trace wires to the neutral switch.

 

[Greg in KY]

ScottAr,

It does have the neutral switch.

I assumed the neutral switch would either be good and work--or be bad and not work at all- not even make the starter click.

It sounds like this is not the case- That it could cause a voltage drop.

Or else I have a wire that has a weak place in the insulation.

Am I think' right?

Thanks,
Greg

 

[frogfarmer]

problem starter

I chased a problem of this nature about a year ago. The owner replaced an oem part with a part from the local parts house and there was enough contact for the solenoid to work part time. Ultimately the shift fork in the starter had to be modified to actuate the electrical contacts in the solenoid. The solenoid would give a very positive click but would not travel far enough to actuate the small plunger inside the barrel for the electrical connection. Although this problem was due to an inferior part wear on shift fork pivot, a bent or broken shift fork, or an improperly shimmed bendix could all cause this problem. This starter bench tested perfectly without fail. Make sure you fully understand the inner workings before making any adjustments. Splitting a tractor to replace a starter ring gear can cost way more than a new starter.

 

[ScottAR]

In my particular case on the Case, the plug to the switch came off.
Plugged it back in and away we go. It had some contact on the switch but not 100%. A loose plug or chaffed wire could do the same thing.
On the Deere with the voltage drop, the long term solution is a relay for the start wire. I have it jimmyrigged at the moment but it's not safe that way. I don't let anyone drive that one till I get a relay on it.

 

[willie59]

Now my 2nd best guess is that there should be shims or something on the mount for the starter - but - I have jumped it with a screwdriver 3-4 times at the starter and is engages perfectly.

If it will in fact do this...you got a voltage drop on your start wire to solenoid.

 

[mitch504]

Man, I hate to have to agree with ATCO

If it will in fact do this...you got a voltage drop on your start wire to solenoid.

Man, I hate to have to agree with ATCO, but I've seen that a lot, he's right simplest fix is usually ford type starter relay in switch circuit.
Good luck

 

[willie59]

simplest fix is usually ford type starter relay in switch circuit.
Good luck

Yep, simple way to fix problem. Check out post #15 of this thread.

https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/showthread.php?t=18162

 

[monkey]

more useful info from this site :notworthy....... have put 4 oem Cat starters in my hoe thinking the starters were going bad, maybe from just sitting so long without use. Sometimes they would start right up, most of the time just click for umpteen times before it would catch.

sure did waste lots of money and a lot of aggravation

 

[seagull369]

Could be a bad ground where the starter bolts to the motor. Had that happen on mine.

 

[Greg in KY]

This is a backhoe I just play with on the farm. It may get 100 hours per year put on it- in a good year.

I believe I will just live with the problem. Is there a down side to that?

I appreciate all the info from you fellers.

Thanks, Greg

 

[mitch504]

With a lot of 'em the contacts in solenoid arc when it hits and doesn't engage, If yours is doing that you'll soon be buying one. That ford type relay is cheap and quick, could save you big money later.

 

[Greg in KY]

All Right.

You all have convinced me to put the relay on.
-
Is this correct? The relay uses the voltage from the battery cable rather than having to got through the route of the wiring harness where it is loosing voltage somewhere. So a any significant voltage drop would be isolated to between the battery cable, added starter relay or solenoid. This is why when I jump it on the starter with a screwdriver it works slick as a whistle.

It still sorta seems to me that it would never engage if it was not getting enough voltage- that it would just click forever.

There is a bunch of stuff that I don't quite understand all I know about.(3 sisters, 1 ex-wife, 1 wife, 4 daughters, 5 female employees)

Thanks, Greg

 

[willie59]

Hi Greg, the fact that you can jump starter with a screwdriver and it works reliably by doing so indicates you have both a good positive battery connection to starter and a good ground as well, but activating starter by machine keyswitch not so well indicates that the starting circuit has an issue somewhere. And that's because the stater engage solenoid reqires a good bit of amperage to engage it fully, especially at the end of the solenoids stroke because that where the plunger has to overcome the spring that breaks the stater motor contact. That spring has to be stiff enough to keep contacts from sticking. Low voltage from poor wiring (or whatever) going to solenoid will pull the plunger in, but not produce enough magnetic energy to overcome contact spring. Result...click, and nothing else. Installing a starter relay nearby takes battery voltage (which you have plenty of) from positive battery connection to starter, and sends that voltage to the start terminal of engage solenoid. The harness wire activates the starter solenoid with ease because those solenoids require much less amperage than does the solenoid on the starter. Fast, easy, inexpensive fix.

 

[Greg in KY]

I rigged up the Ford starter relay last night. It looks like it will work good.

Quick, easy and $27.00 for the part.

I appreciate you all.

Greg

 

[willie59]

I rigged up the Ford starter relay last night. It looks like it will work good.

Quick, easy and $27.00 for the part.

I appreciate you all.

Greg

Yep, easy as eatin' punkin' pie on Thanksgiving Day ain't it.

Good to hear you got it sorted out and working. :cool2

 

[Greg in KY]

MAN - It sure is nice to hit the starter button and it fires right up.

A Big Thanks,

Greg

 

[quigoline]

same exact problem w/ my 580C...will be adding to relay..Thanks, Al

 

[Greg in KY]

quigoline,

If I remember correctly-
The only exception to the above instructions is that I had to run the other small post(on the new relay) to ground. I don't believe it matters which you put hot to and which you ground.

I must have gotten a little different relay then the one above.

Greg

 

[mitch504]

quigoline,

If I remember correctly-
The only exception to the above instructions is that I had to run the other small post(on the new relay) to ground. I don't believe it matters which you put hot to and which you ground.

I must have gotten a little different relay then the one above.

Greg

If you get a starter relay for a '70s Ford pickup it will be grounded through the mounting bracket. There are several different configurations of relays available. As long as you are providing a short heavy duty circuit to the start terminal it will work.