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Case 580B shuttle pump...

walterneedshelp

New Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2015
Messages
2
Location
quebec
Ron,
You sound like an innovative individual. My feeling on the milky oil is that with an oil change or 2, you are getting most of it out, unless it's getting back into the
compartment with every rain shower. A check at the drain plugs may reveal clean water, after the machine has set outside for a while. It may not be cavitation you have, usually more of a pulsing sound to it. Once working, the hot oil will out-gas any remaining moisture over time, but in the interim, of course, it's hard on machined surfaces.

I've never heard of a B oil cooler leaking engine coolant back into the shuttle oil, and likely you would recognize it in the oil as you start to drain. However oil coolers have been known to leak one way and not another, despite what seems logical.

The next machine I get, that I suspect has a plugged pump screen, I'm going to drill and thread for a pipe plug, maybe a 3/4", not sure. This should allow the area under the screen to be flushed(note debris in pic), possibly allowing the screen to be cleaned somewhat, by you and future owners. Not recommending this but I will try almost anything to learn. The bottom of the screen is about 1/2"- 5/8" above the floor of the torque tube. Just to the right of one of the 'blue' plugs, sealing the openings to torque converter, is the opening the pump pic-up tube uses to reach the bottom. Here are some reference pics. The shuttle assembly has been removed so you can see the countershaft and gears, as well as the end of the pick-up tube. Phil:)
Hi Phil, would you know the exact location to drill taper plug to blow out screen tube?
 

Davecase580b

New Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2015
Messages
4
Location
Lakebay wa
Hello new to this forum.
I have a case 580bck.
Did the tap and clean of intake screen.
Found lots of debris.
Still low torque converter pressure. pulled control valve.
Pressure regulators for clutch and torque converter were stuck.
Having trouble finding parts especially the gaskets for the shuttle valve any advise?
Dave
 

rezister

New Member
Joined
Oct 6, 2015
Messages
2
Location
nova Scotia
Thanks for the great info. I have read the entire post, twice!
I have a newly acquired 580b diesel with the shuttle. It hardly moves in forward or reverse warm or cold. The shuttle fluid looked to have water in it, so I changed it (without draining the torque conveter) it didn't help. I used tch and Trans fluid at 50/50, as I had it, and am likey changing it again soon to get more water out. I was reading about drilling and cleaning the screen, but have a question. Could a plugged screen be a problem as the pressure is in the green when in forward or reverse. My understanding is that with a plugged screen, the pressure will show low.
I figure the torque converter or clutch plates. Plates less likely as forward and reverse are the same. I'm also thinking about a second fluid change as I'm sure there is still some water in it.
Thanks for any help.
 

Davecase580b

New Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2015
Messages
4
Location
Lakebay wa
I would check the pressure relief for the torque converter and the clutch and the setting distance for the clutch spool.
Also add more fluid the level needs to be checkled with the engine hot.
 

Davecase580b

New Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2015
Messages
4
Location
Lakebay wa
Drilling an tapping the pan to clean the screen is a good idea mine was covered in old gasket material.
Had to make a new screen from a metal kitchen strainer . When I drilled the hole the pilot when through the screen
 

rezister

New Member
Joined
Oct 6, 2015
Messages
2
Location
nova Scotia
Thanks. I'll pick up the tap and drill it as soon as get back there. Would the pressure guage not drop if the screen was restricted?
Is there information, or a post that someone can point me toward to check the pressure relief for the tc?
Thanks again!
 

Davecase580b

New Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2015
Messages
4
Location
Lakebay wa
The pressure regulator for the tc is on the right side of the spool assembly.
Two bolts hold in down it is also where the pressure test port is small plug on the housing.
My was acting like yours , cleaning the screen helped some took appart the spool assembly and found the pressure regulator was stuck open.
Also the spool on the left dumps the pressure to the cluck plates if it's not adjusted correctly the clutch slips. 3.1 inches front the center of the first bolt to the center of the bolt on the spool.
The clutch petal has a cam bolt the 1 inch bolt changes the distance.
 

Lee D

Member
Joined
Oct 18, 2015
Messages
6
Location
Portal Arizona
For those of you looking for new "No longer available" A7075 Gasket - pump to adapter seals, Ref. 51 on the parts list, the friendly folks over at Coleman Equipment crossed that number to 51200848-198 and they work fine!!

Also, I just finished cleaning the screen on the bottom of the oil suction tube (A38034) by going in from the top without removing the tank and I'll say right up front it was a bear. I considered coming in from the bottom by drilling and plugging but did not have the equipment to do so. Probably a good thing because when I did finally get the screen out it was so plugged with small particles that the only way it could have been cleaned was by removing it. Tiny pieces of gasket material were stuck in almost every hole. None rinsed out. Some blew out with air but most had to be physically picked out or poked through and rinsed in a bucket of solvent.

Besides removing all the plumbing above the control valve/adapter plate/Housing assembly you'll have to loosen the steering column by removing the four bolts holding it at the bottom and with a ratchet strap or equivalent hoist it up and back enough so the adapter plate will clear. You'll also have to remove the two studs holding the tank to the column casting plus misc. linkages and lines that are in the way. I'm not going to try to itemize but there's a whole mess of stuff you have to work around. I made a lot of work for myself by removing things that might not have needed to go. I do not profess to be any kind of expert. You're going to have to make some of these discoveries on your own. Also, my 580B might not be exactly like yours since previous owner(s) obviously had it apart and back together before me.

I did not disconnect the power steering as there was enough flex in the lines to get it out of the way.

Remove everything from the top of the A38386 Housing - adapter (or what I'll call the front cover) taking great care to lot lose the detent ball and spring. Once the cover is loose, block it up far enough so you can reach under and remove the pump and the suction tube. Be real careful to not drop the bolts down into the main case.

The cover can now be slid out for cleaning and you now have access to the main case from the top. I also removed the rear cover over the clutch packs and then using a length of 3/8" flexible tube hooked to my shop vac I poked into and around all the nooks and crannies I could reach. I was amazed at how many more gasket chunks I found. Out of curiosity I filtered and cleaned the residue just to make sure there weren't any metal chunks and there weren't. It was all gasket. Since so many people have had this torque stall problem I'm thinking maybe the original Case gaskets were of a material that crumbled when removed rather than coming off in sheets. Add to that some sloppy workmanship leaving this "soft harmless" material inside where it fell. Just a guess.

Reassembling, other than all new gaskets and carefully cleaning the old parts I used what I had. I'd like to say I enjoyed this project but the only good things I can say about it is I'm very glad it's over. And the tractor pulls better than ever but then I've only had it since '98.

Some of you might wind up swearing at me for talking you into doing it this way. All I'm saying is, it's possible. It worked for me with a whole lot of swearing of my own. Out here in the middle of nowhere it was that or scrap the tractor. I'll try to answer questions but you're going to have to figure out a lot on your own, like having at least a parts list to refer to.

I'm new to blogs and posting so hopefully I'm not breaking any of the rules. I finished the tractor a few weeks ago and it's taken my this long to build up the nerve to do this. Part of what encourages me to do this is just how well the tractor is running. You'd think I slipped it a couple little blue pills.
 
Last edited:

onemank6

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2010
Messages
1,175
Location
michigan
this is good to know i did my ck a few years back but i removed the tank i think either way you do this it is painful at best and your pretty much guaranteed to learn some new language.
 

Swampfoxo

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 15, 2015
Messages
127
Location
Franklinton louisiana
Occupation
Engineer
Yes you can, you can clean the shuttle pump screen without breaking the tractor in half cause I have done it. You pull the shulltle valve I n top of the transmission below the fuel tank. Unbolt the lower part of the steering. The unbolt the plate then raise it up and unbolt the tube from the plate tie it up so u can get it later and don't drop the bolts. After the plate is out of the way pull the tube up out of the the tranny . Lol nothing to it and is cheaper than splitting the tractor. I know ur probably done by now since I'm r post was 2011 but I'm replying to the new folks on here. Mike. Ps after u have done this drill the 3/4 whole and thread it for future cleanings and consider making a bigger screen.
 

Mikelefler11

New Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2016
Messages
3
Location
Alberta
Pictures.

Hey Phil, and all the rest of you with a sluggish 580B shuttle, here are pics of what i've done. The hole was drilled,(thanks to phil's pics and instructions), in the bottom of the torque tube housing right beneath the pump pick-up tube screen. The tube is 3/8" above the floor of the housing and the housing is 3/8" thick at that spot. So measuring up from the bottom, outside of the case, you get 3/4 " to bottom of screen, got it. Now, my hole is off a bit from center, so I'm giving measurement to exact center of tube. Looking at the 6 mount holes on the housing, the tube center is 3 1/2" exactly rear of back hole, left side of tractor(see pic). Hole is exactly in line with the left side mount holes (see pick).
So if you draw a line straight through left side holes back to housing and measure 3 1/2" back from rear threaded hole, X marks the spot! I drilled and tapped for a 3/4 pipe plug, and that gave me lots of room to clean the screen and housing. The trans pressure gauge has been right at the line between red and green for the last 8-10 years! Now stays as in the pic! well into the green zone. I'm running 50% case TCH & 50% ATF fluid. After draining a bit of creamy fluid out the 3 holes, twice, no more moisture and the machine pulls better than I have ever seen, Converter doesn't seem to loose it's hold any more like it used to. Rpm would raise and speed would slow up. I will move a huge pile of broken block one night soon, if that doesn't kill it, I'll head down the highway and uphill to the fuel station! Winter is coming and i've got 3 acres of lot to move snow banks, normally have to take breaks every 40 minutes due to torque fading out.I am going to check pressures at ports on valve body as soon as the cars stop piling in the shop. Thanks again to all the help found here. Ron.

I can't access the pictures can you send them to me? Or repost them
 

Swampfoxo

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 15, 2015
Messages
127
Location
Franklinton louisiana
Occupation
Engineer
Hello im mike from louisiana . Ive studied these post and ive learned alot but when it comes to phil i havent heard from him. I sentba letter to the owners of this foru to see if they could find out anything for us. Mike
 

wi4x4man

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2013
Messages
59
Location
Northern Wisconsin
Occupation
Sr. Product Engineer
The other day I created a new posting, but no one seems to be paying attention to it. So, I decided to post a thread here.

I have a 580B, early 1970's model with the hydraulic shuttle. A few weeks ago I had my kid moving it from the gravel pit to the farm road to spread out some dirt. When he arrived, he told me that it was smoking a lot. Figuring it was just the crank breather (the wind was blowing just right) I paid no further attention to it.

I jumped in after a few minutes and that smoke he spoke of was incredible. I got back out, felt the torque tube, it was hot but not bad, and I didn't notice any leaks. At any rate, I tried forward and it went in just fine. The pressure on the gauge was right down the middle. I put it in reverse and there was nothing, but the pressure was fine. In neutral with the clutch out the pressure was right where it was supposed to be.

Figuring something may have gotten too hot, I let it cool down. Next day went out there and it still would not go into reverse.

So I hauled it home and started to work on figuring out what was going on. I raised the rear off the ground and did some checking:

1) With the clutch pedal pressed in the neutral position, the gear train is in "reverse" with very limited power... certainly not enough to move the machine. Also, I have to force the transmission shifter into gear sets, otherwise it grinds.
2) If I release the clutch pedal while in neutral, the gear train does not change direction or power.
3) With the clutch pedal pressed in either neutral or reverse, or with the clutch pedal out in either neutral or reverse, everything is the same.
4) If I put her in forward, the clutch and the lever respond appropriately with all of the power in the world.

Okay...

Then two days ago while hauling another load of gravel (this time I used my Deere tractor to load the truck) I noticed a trail of oil down the road. Asking my son what exactly he did when he travelled down the road, he told me he had stopped at one point and put it in 4th gear to get to where we were working faster. The place he stopped is exactly the same spot that the trail of oil ended on the road.

However, while running it again last night I could not find any leaks at all on the machine. Very odd!!! So I figured I would start to tear everything down.

My gut tells me it is the shifting valve, likely with a blown seal allowing what flow would normally flow in "neutral" to also flow in the "reverse" portion. So this is where I am going to start.

But how in blazes have people been able to remove that damn fuel tank? I noticed that there is a LOT of stud length, so I ended up cutting some of the studs down to shorter lengths. But it is still not quite enough as it binds against the cross tube that holds the uprights of the loader frame together. And I sure as hell am not going to split this thing in half to fix a valve on top of the torque tube. I split it to rebuild the rear end about 3 years ago, and not having an indoor shop with a concrete floor (or just a concrete floor for that matter) makes life very difficult.

Any ideas would be appreciated.

PS. I have to have the fuel tank fixed anyways as the rear RH stud has been ever-so-slowly weeping fuel for about 2 years now.
 

wi4x4man

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2013
Messages
59
Location
Northern Wisconsin
Occupation
Sr. Product Engineer
Well, I am posting again... hoping I can illicit a response about my issue.

I was able to get the valve assembly off without taking the fuel tank off (I finally gave up on trying to get that thing out). Nothing looked out of the ordinary or abnormal.

A question though.. how in the heck does that valve assembly operate without any O-rings or seals on the valve spools? I thought for sure that I would see a damaged seal, but nothing! The only seals are the oil seals where the spools come out of the housing.

Very confused to say the least.
 

JSharp

Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2016
Messages
13
Location
East Central IL
Well,

A question though.. how in the heck does that valve assembly operate without any O-rings or seals on the valve spools? I thought for sure that I would see a damaged seal, but nothing! The only seals are the oil seals where the spools come out of the housing.

Very confused to say the least.

Hydraulic valves are amazingly precision things for no more than they cost. The spools are ground to fit the valve bore well enough to work properly without the need for internal o rings. Pretty impressive when you think about it.
 
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