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Case 321E Deutz Engine Starting Issue

Discussion in 'Compact Wheel Loaders' started by GaryHoff, Jan 21, 2017.

  1. GaryHoff

    GaryHoff Senior Member

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    Heavey Equipment Mechanic
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    Hello everyone,

    I'm hoping with the wealth of knowledge on here, I can get some opinions on this issue.

    We have a case 321E, with the deutz engine, bf4m2011. It is my understanding that some of the Bobcat Skid steers used this engine, or similar engine.

    The issue is the unit will not start after sitting overnight. It will crank over, and smoke, and will eventually have to be boosted. If you crank it over long enough, eventually it will start on its own. (probably 4-5 tries of 30 second cranking) You can also give it a very small amount of ether, and it will start right away. (the machine is parked in a warm shop) Once it has started, you can shut it down and start it up fine. It can sit for 4-5 hours, and start up fine.

    There is no lack of engine power. Engine sounds good while running. 11000hrs on the engine, with very little engine work. A few turbos, starter and alternators. Timing belt hasn't even been done yet. (I know, timing belt should have been done at 5000hrs)

    New injectors were installed, with no change.
    Glow pins appear to be working properly. They stay on only a few seconds. Perhaps they should be on longer? Perhaps they are not getting hot enough any more?
    Lift pump pressure has been checked, and is good. 8psi at idle, over 14psi at high idle. Fuel is not bleeding down. Clear lines were installed, and no air bubbles were noted overnight. Fuel is also present right away at the injectors.

    This is a difficult issue to diagnose, as I only get one test per day.
     
  2. thepumpguysc

    thepumpguysc Senior Member

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    One thing you could check and its fast is, jump the glow plugs ON..
    Take a hot wire straight off the battery and hold/clip it on the glow plug rail, if it has one..
    That's to say, if the gp's feed off of one common rail, supplying juice to all the glow plugs..
    and count to 20.. THEN try to start the machine..
    IF they are wired individually, you obviously cant do that.. unless you find the plug where it splits off and apply voltage there..
    and just because the gp lite is coming on, doesn't mean they are working.. take um out and apply 12v to each one individually..
    While they are out, count how many seconds it takes for each one to get cherry/white hot.. then compare that reading to the count you get w/them installed..
    If you know for a fact that it takes 10 seconds for them to get white hot and your relay is shutting down after 5.. there you go.. your on your way to diagnosing the problem..
     
  3. fpgm04

    fpgm04 Well-Known Member

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    Location:
    USA
    Gary,
    Just a guess, assuming the batteries and starter are good, sounds like some extra parasitic loading during the initial cold crank causing a slower than desirable crank speed.

    For example, brake system accumulator lost some of its pressure and is needing to be charged up, or a stuck hydraulic valve.

    I am not 921E expert, but I think there is a diagnostic port to measure accumulator pressure.

    As a quick test, you could try pumping the brake pedal many many times to lower the pressure all the way before the initial start, then see if that produces any different behavior. This is not exactly a conclusive test, but may give an indication.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2017
  4. GaryHoff

    GaryHoff Senior Member

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    Heavey Equipment Mechanic
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    FPGM04 - I had also thought that this was a hydraulic loading issue during starting, as it does slow the crank speed during long cranks. The travel pump is not building drive pressure during cranking, and I had placed the brake and steering pumps directly into pales during cranking. No difference was made. It did have a bad brake accumulator, and that was changed.

    Pumping the brakes and or moving the steering does not make a difference to the start time.

    The 321E, and other small case wheel loaders are made in Germany, and are a rebranded product. So its not even really comparable to the other case loaders.

    THEPUMPGUYSC - I will try sending power to the glow plugs for 30 seconds. It has a timer relay, which is controlled by a temp sender. So with the unit being parked in a warm shop, I would assume that the glow plug time would be short (which it is)

    With that being said, come to think of it, the old Ford diesels wouldn't start on a hot summer day if the glow plugs didn't come on.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2017
  5. bartelbe

    bartelbe Active Member

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    Heavy Equipment Technician
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    Looks like your on the right track with checking glow plugs, the 321E is a b*****d machine. but anyway on to my 2c , This makes me believe of more a cylinder heat issue since she smokes on cranking and cracks off with a little sniff of ether, When it was new the glow plugs proabley werent as important since enough heat was built off compression but after 11,000 hrs which is impressive on that little unit injector duetz she need the help of those glow plugs to get things moving. It maybe a good idea to do a compression check also. I have seen issues with the unit injectors but these where mostly on units that ran bio diesel fuel but on those there would be no smoke upon cranking 90% of the time. you can try pumpguys suggestion of jumping the glow bar power rail to see if theres any difference or just remove each plug and hook her up to a battery to see if she glows and since youll have the plug out easy enough to do a compression check. If those check out ok then it is possible the unit injector pumps could be the cause, but being glow plugs and compression check is cheaper i would start there.
     
  6. Delmer

    Delmer Senior Member

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    You can check the glow plugs without removing them with an Ohm meter or a test light, just have to disconnect the wire and check to ground. An accurate ohm meter helps because the glow plugs will only increase resistance as the age until they burn out and have no continuity. The increased resistance means less watts, slow heat up. Also this system might actually sense the amp draw and use that to shut off the glow plugs, as they heat up the resistance goes up, so if the resistance is higher than original they will read hotter than they really are. Add in the hours on the engine, the added resistance of the rest of the glow plug circuit, and you see how the system that worked beautifully new just isn't working any more. And that's assuming they're not burned out.