Case 1845C Starting System

[willie59]

I respect your solutions but:

If machine operated properly from new with existing system why does it develope issues down the road?

If machine sits over the winter why does the issue show up first thing in the spring?

In my opinion what you are all dealing with is a bad ground issue. When a machine sits rust will build and create high resistance in connections. I'm sure that if you check and clean all connections the problem will dissapear, but again, I could be wrong.

No worries Z2898, remember, we are troubleshooting from a distance. I'm just offering a possible solution for his troubles, don't proport that it's the proper fix to the machines components. We can only work with scavengers comments at best. In post #4 he said he re-did all the grounds adding dielectric grease and added an additional ground cable to starter. Possibly with all the suggestions offered, something will place him on the path to resolving his troubles.

 

[Z2898]

Atco,

Nothing but respect intended. I respect everyone's suggestions and yes at the end of the day we are all just trying to help.

That's not a bad thing. Good day to you sir!

Z

 

[Ant1845b]

Hi Scavenger, it just so happened I worked on a similar problem machine today, a Yanmar B27 mini excavator. Sometimes the starter would work, other time, the eternal click click click. I've already had the starter gone through by the starter shop, so I know the starter isn't the problem. A customer purchased the machine, I went to bring it in the shop to service it and "click". Grrr :Banghead. Popped the access panel off from behind the seat, connected my remote starter button to the starter and it worked perfect. More than likely a voltage drop on the starting wire circuit from the keyswitch, probably the same problem you are having. Now, I could spend a couple of hours trying to determine what gremlin is causing the voltage drop while egaging start on the keyswitch. Or, I could easily remedy the problem by installing a typical starter relay solenoid near the starter. The relay requires much less amperage to engage than does the solenoid on the starter. You could easily activate one of these solenoid relays with as small as 18 ga wire. I simply connected 12 ga wire to battery terminal on the starter and connected that wire to one of the large terimnals on the relay. Another 12 ga wire goes from the opposite large terminal on the relay to the solenoid activating terminal on the starter. The original starter wire connects to the small activating terminal on the relay. Simple, easy, quick to do, and works like a charm.




View attachment 63782

This is what I've been looking for. So the main purpose of this relay between the ignition switch and the starter solenoid connector is to just direct a larger amount of current to the starter solenoid that could of been lost through the original ignition switch wire from the switch to the solenoid terminal? Since it does takes very little power to activate a relay, even if the volts from the relay input wire is a bit low. Because on my dads machine (1845b) hes been having the click click problem as stated above. He said it all started happening AFTER the mechanic has installed the relay. When I was looking at it I didn't think it made a difference as being a car mechanic relays are used for using a small current to control a larger one. But in this setup the same amount volts is being used at both ends, it just seemed pointless in a way until I came across this thread, but it does make sense now. The mechanic told me dad he suggests installing one so it " doesn't kill the starter" but that still doesn't make much sense to me. I think I found the problem being a lose battery cable that connects to the battery terminal but was just curious of this relay setup that I found the answer to. Thanks a lot. But I do have some more questions. Is there any other switches that have to be closed to direct current to the starter, something similar to a clutch safety switch(car reference)? Where can I find a wiring diagrams for this machine? Although I didn't really look much at it, how would you remove the fuel sending unit from the tank so I can check the resistance on the sending unit arm and see if its working properly, and replace it if its out of specs. The gauges works(when wire grounded its E, wire open its F), but its reading a little past F and my dad said its not right. Heres a link to the relay setup below just for clarification.
http://i51.tinypic.com/i2v7o7.jpg

Thanks again.

 

[willie59]

Yes Ant1845b, I perform this remedy on start wire circuits that are problematic within the wiring having excessive voltage drop on the start wire. But keep in mind, I don't do this necessarily as a "fix" for problem wiring as much as I do it for a customers benefit. When a person is paying you X number of dollars per hour to perfom a repair, this gives them a choice of A) you may have to pay me for several hours work to go through your wiring system searching for the wiring gremlin, or B) pay me for this simple, inexpensive, solution that just may last many more years of service. And I've yet to have one come back to me.

But anytime you have cranking problems, whether it's automotive or machinery, the same systematic method of troubleshooting should be followed. Condition of battery (preferrably with load test), battery terminal connections, condition of cables, all termination connections including grounds. Keep in mind, just because you find a termination connected, fasteners are good and tight, corrosion can still develop between terminal, fastener, and termination and cause a problem. Once you have determined battery and all cable connections are in good order, and you still get click click, then it's time to take a look at voltage drop at start wire.

Simple test, disconnect start wire from termination at starter solenoid. Connect a volt meter to start wire, hit start button. Start wire should have 12V +/-. Reconnect start wire to starter terminal, connect volt meter to start terminal as well, hit start button. If voltage drops to somewhere around 7 to 9 volts, likely you have problem with start wire and relay may remedy your problem, but it could be a failing solenoid coil as well pulling excessive amps. Take a small gauge jumper wire, 14 or 16 gauge, and jump from start terminal to battery positive connection at starter, if you get a good arc and still some hesitation from solenoid, likely solenoid is going south. But if it cranks solid without any coaxing, fit a relay on the start wire circuit.

As for wiring diagram, you're Case dealer should be able to provide that for you. And the fuel sending unit, I typically disconnect sensing wire from sending unit and see what position gauge is in whether it reads F or E. Then ground the sensing wire as see if gauge goes opposite direction. If it does, it's typically a bad sending unit.

 

[Willis Bushogin]

Willie, I just borrowed a Case 1845B skidsteer from a friend, he bought it new I know its been sitting for the last two years and hardly used in the previous 5-6 years. He used it right much when he first got it. it has 2200 hours on it
I had to install a new starter switch and battery and it fired off the first time. The only issue I have with the machine is, it has a loud squealing noise when you start to move it. It could be doing it before then, but its hard to figure out. Its the sound that low/no hyds. make but its full. Seems to have good power, but the noise is not good
what year do think this machine is? Im guessing one of the first 1800 series, it doesnt have any safety devices. I have a 1840 and it has the levers on both sides, to keep you in the seat
Here is what really amazing, he has a backhoe attachment that attaches where the bucket attaches, the hyd hoses goes to couplings on back of the machine. This is not one of those lightweight backhoes, its about the size of a JD 300 machine. I plan on borrowing that also, being he doesnt have a place to store it anymore and I will take pictures.
Just wondered about how old the machine is and any ideas on the noise

 

[alrman]

Just wondered about how old the machine is and any ideas on the noise

I know you asked for Willie - here's my thoughts
Guess age at around 1980, give or take a year or 2.
Noise possibilities -
Pumps on those early 1845's are different to 1840 / 1845C's. They were a bit noisey to drive - it may be normal?
They had planetary reductions between drive motors & chain case , make sure they have oil in them.
Grease up the cluster shafts - in between the wheels.

 

[willie59]

I have to yield to alrman, he knows way more about these machines than I do.

 

[Willis Bushogin]

Thanks, Ill check the oil in the gears
I just didnt want to mess his machine up and I didnt know about the oil in the planerarys
Thanks again

 

[jvtrucking]

Hello, all:

I'm having a similar problem to this one, only it was that the starter would grind with the flywheel and start with a little hesitation. I installed an extra solenoid/relay and now, I can't get the darn thing to shut off once I crank it! I have to remove the positive battery cable to get it to shut off.

Anybody have any idea what's going on with that?

Thanks!
~JV

 

[melben]

I have been following this thread with interest, I worked my life with Case and have installed many many of the aux relay kits to the various units using the Nippon starters. We had access through Case a Cab relay modification kit consisting of a tab mount relay and a harness ideally suited for the engine starter mod as used on the Case CDC engines. I believe the Bosch style relay is far superior to a "Ford" style relay as the coil resistance uses very little current draw to engage. The Cab haness relay was used on 90 series ag tractors to replace a "Ford" style relay which gave problems in the same area. It is listed as a mod in the parts book.

As another posted, we in the field are after results and whether or not you feel it is necessary it is a easy fix to a complex problem. I believe the wiring is marginal at best between the ignition start switch and the solenoid contained in the starter. It is not a stop gap measure it just easily corrects a voltage drop problem in the primary solenoid circuit. With the Bosch style relay only Milliamps are required to operate the contact relay and then the start solenoid is fed by 10 ga. wire. I believe the automotive style relays draw significantly more current than the Bosch syyle and could be prone to the same issue.

The above mentioned haness uses a pair of 10s from the main starter terminal to the relay and another to the kick in tab on the starter and a 16 to energize the relay and a 16 to ground to ground the coil of the relay.

In our area, overnite temps would fall far enough for the voltage drop that made the Nippon solenoid unleliable as fed from the normal key switch function but once running would work all day without incident.

At the end of the day for a field mechanic solving the problem is the issue and the Bosch relay more than did that.