Building a farm road dozer, excavator, or ?

[Dadnatron]

We recently purchased 80+ac of beautiful bluegrass farmland and want to build it into a horse farm. This means roads.

I will have roughly 1.5m of roads over the place, when all is said and done, however, I must build about 1/3m of road for barn access before I can do anything. In order to free up $$$, I have to get my horses on our place. They are currently boarded, so I am in a fix. In order for any more significant $$$ to be spent, the road has to be put in to an old tobacco barn we will be refurbishing into a horse barn. But to have the $$$ to have the road built, I have to have the $$$ freed from the horses. One BIG Catch 22.

I had a recent quote for road construction, and it is far out of my range at this point. Roughly $26.5K which DOES NOT include aggregate. That is the grading, culvert, and fabric installation along with pre and post aggregate packing. To be fair, the road is on a small hill, but he said he would just build right up the hill, along the slope. There are no trees etc. There is a place around the barn requiring grading to prevent water running into the barn. I can easily drive along the route I desire the road to take, but it is just along the winding edge of a field with a sideways 'cross grade'.

Regardless... I can't afford to have it professionally completed. I don't have a problem paying for expertise, but I just don't have that kind of money at this point.

I currently have a 100hp JD tractor with FEL. I also have a 6yd scraper which the tractor fills without issue. And a 12ft Killifer blade and box blade with hydraulic scarifiers. I've used both to do a lot of dirt moving around the farm, and I believe I can do quite a bit of the dirt work with these implements. But, cutting into the hill will be more of an issue.

I've never used a dozer, but they seem to 'be the thing' to build roads. I have rented small excavators as well, and I think I could do the cut with the excavator. I have some CTL experience, but would in no way be more than a novice at either. I am fairly good with using heavy machinery (growing up on a farm) so I'm comfortable learning and working them.

The cut would be about 3ft high, moving dirt from high side to low side. I want 11ft finished gravel so I was thinking I would need to build around a 13ft wide base not including high side ditches.

My question to you is what would you recommend for the excavation? I can strip the topsoil with my scraper, I believe. But I'm don't think I would be able to make the cut well. Would you recommend renting a dozer or excavator or something else? Any recommendations for anything else 'road building related' is also appreciated.

I've also thought about asking about 'hiring' the road builder as a consultant. Paying him a rate for his direction but doing the work myself. I would really like this, as I really like him, I just can't afford his company. How do you think an Excavation contractor would feel about being asked this question?

 

[Scrub Puller]

Yair . . .

Hello Dadnatron and welcome to the Forum.

It's hard to make constructive comment without seeing the job, but crikey. a 100Hp tractor with a loader, a six yard scraper and a box blade with rippers? I would think you are pretty well set to build a road . . . provided it is reasonable digging of course.

I always try to make the road base on cut rather than trying to consolidate fill. You don't mention how steep the cross fall is but a three foot cut on the top side indicates it is not too extreme.

To work on the cross fall with the scraper you will need to construct a rough bench with the loader by pushing/digging dirt down hill across the road and then a couple of dozing passes along the road to get the scraper laying back into the hill. This is standard practice and of course is normally done with a dozer but of your case it's run what you brung.

It is always good to post pictures when the site lets you and I'm sure other folks will comment.

All the best with it.

Cheers.

 

[Welder Dave]

That sounds ridiculously expensive and then gravel on top of that. I think that contractor is playing you for a fool. If you have a disc, work the area and it will make it a lot easier to do. Use the box blade for final grading.

 

[td25c]

Yair . . .

Hello Dadnatron and welcome to the Forum.

It's hard to make constructive comment without seeing the job, but crikey. a 100Hp tractor with a loader, a six yard scraper and a box blade with rippers? I would think you are pretty well set to build a road . . . provided it is reasonable digging of course.



Cheers.

Agree Scrub . Sounds like everything you would need on a small road project .
I did spot this Massey Ferguson 3 point single shank ripper in Bowling Green Kentucky if the ground is tough .
http://www.tractorhouse.com/listings/farm-equipment/for-sale/8807841/massey-ferguson-24

 

[Dadnatron]

I have a ripper and a 3 bottom plow if needed to loosen up soil.

Since I believe I am going to use fabric, I was speaking with the representative of US Fabric out of Cincinnati. He said that, when using their 315# fabric, their recommendation is to 'stay high and dry' ie, doing as little dirt disturbance after removing vegetation, as possible. Then laying the fabric and adding between 6-8" of compactable aggregate over the top. Then smooth up the edge with topsoil (I suspect).

This would significantly decrease my expected excavation along a few big parts of it that are much more flat. There is about 150-200yds that will be along a hillside. I haven't shot the grad along the hill, but it isn't steep. I can comfortably drive on the grade without any unease.

Dave, I agree... the cost was far more than double of what I expected it to be. There might be much more to it that is in the quote

 

[Dadnatron]

Thanks,

I do have a couple questions on which I've yet to find information.

1. When 'packing and compacting', if I am to rent a compactor, what sort would work best for my purposes?
- As I see it, I have need for compacting fill/lifts in a couple low spots as well as compacting the outside edge in order to keep from having everything on 'cut'. I certainly understand the benefits of putting everything on 'cut' however, there will be areas where fill will be necessary to prevent a short, but much more steep, area of the road. (I still believe this is below 14% grade, but I'd like to even it out.) I think this would be best served with a sheep's foot either towed or vibratory. However, how do you compact the outer edge of any fill along the 'waste' which has been pushed off the edge? Is it purely a vertical compaction? And, given that a sheep's foot drum will leave the divots from compaction, I believe that for finish compaction, I would need a second 'smooth' drum vibratory compactor. Can I simply get a smooth drum compactor and compact in 'thinner' lifts? And finally, I suspect that I would need a single drum/2 tires compactor... but what size would be the most useful in my situation?

2. Do I need to 'compact the cut'?

3. And finally, how do I know when I've compacted 'enough/optimally'? Is there a 'poor man's' Proctor test? I tend to be a guy who leans towards over-doing it, so I could see myself running over this "just one more time."

 

[treemuncher]

Is there any reason you must use the fabric? When I was doing dirt work, the only time I ever considered fabric under-layment was to get across swampy ground. The fabric is a huge cost and rarely necessary. It works great but it is cost prohibitive except in certain situations.

The cost for the drive sounds excessively high unless there is a lot of clearing of stumps and trees that is required. I suggest getting more bids from some other firms.

 

[kevin37b]

I have asked this question on other forums and will ask it again . How can people spend the money on the land , knowing what needs to be done machinerywise and suddenly no $$$$ ? I just do not get it . All of a sudden we are looking at a 300$ lawnmower and an 8n Ford to build a 5 mile road and mow 5 acres ?

 

[Delmer]

I have asked this question on other forums and will ask it again . How can people spend the money on the land , knowing what needs to be done machinerywise and suddenly no $$$$ ? I just do not get it . All of a sudden we are looking at a 300$ lawnmower and an 8n Ford to build a 5 mile road and mow 5 acres ?

I agree, except there seems to be plenty of equipment in place already, maybe way more equipment than needed?

Also agree about the fabric, it's a great tool and I'd really like to try it sometime to see if it really works like promised, but gravel is so cheap that it hasn't made sense yet.

Also, if not too late, reconsider converting the existing building. If your tobacco sheds are like ours they are more reusable than most old buildings, but still, a horse barn built to "horse standards" is a huge amount of finishing work. Put that work into a new building that's straight and made for it. Don't try to cram all that expensive new work into a building that's not made for it.

 

[Dadnatron]

I have asked this question on other forums and will ask it again . How can people spend the money on the land , knowing what needs to be done machinerywise and suddenly no $$$$ ? I just do not get it . All of a sudden we are looking at a 300$ lawnmower and an 8n Ford to build a 5 mile road and mow 5 acres ?

The land will always be there. If it takes me a few more years to do what I want... I will still get it done.

 

[Dadnatron]

If your tobacco sheds are like ours they are more reusable than most old buildings, but still, a horse barn built to "horse standards" is a huge amount of finishing work. Put that work into a new building that's straight and made for it. Don't try to cram all that expensive new work into a building that's not made for it.

I had someone come take a look at the barn, and they thought it was in great shape. Needs some things, no doubt, but it will do for the time being. I like the old thing. Fix a little of the roof, reside it, and put in some stalls and it will be good. We will be building a 'new' old tobacco barn/horse barn on another part of the property, but that will be in a year or two. Our home and other buildings will come in time.

Concerning the fabric. Our soil is clay and although I think that I could do it without, I'd rather build the road solid and not worry about losing the aggregate into soft spots should they develop. It certainly could be overkill. But I'd rather spend a little more now and insure that when I'm 70, I'm not going to be cussing myself because I didn't do what I could do to build it strong.

 

[check]

No matter how well you build it, there's going to be some maintenance in the future, mostly grading. Minor low spots will get filled when you grade. Major ones will require more aggregate. I've known some people to put a layer of cheap large river rock over clay areas that don't dry out enough just to stabilize it, then after driving on it a while, put a layer of gravel on top. The fabric may be good to have, but dollar for dollar the money might be better spent elsewhere.

 

[Dadnatron]

I recognize there will be maintenance. I'm working to minimize it though. I have more money now, than I will likely have physical ability later. I'm trying to leverage them both.

But your point is well taken. There are certainly LOTS of places money can be spent at this point.

 

[Scrub Puller]

It will vary of course with soil and climate but I reckon the most effective and least cost option for access roads is to do the least amount of work required to give easy access for the owners vehicles, establish wheel tracks across the Prairie and improve it up from there.

Geo-fabric on a farm track? . . . truly?

Cheers.

 

[fast_st]

100 hp tractor and the FEL bucket filled to the limit makes a good rolling compactor especially if there is a little moisture content, I've packed a lot of roadbed with my backhoe, fill the bucket and drive back and forth, six inch lifts and you will have it compacted firm in no time at all.

 

[Willie B]

I've never worried much about compaction. I have gravity, rain, and traffic to compact. Maybe it's about soil type. I think about drainage. I seldom imagine compaction to be a big factor. Time brings compaction. A sidehill road needs a ditch on the uphill side. Ideally the weight of vehicles needs to be on cut soil, not fill soil. The makeup of road needs to be impervious on top, drainage below.

The first highways in this country were: get to a place above natural water table. Install 10" of crushed stone. The "Macadam" stone specified 1 x 1 x 2" In the day they were dealing with horse and wagon traffic. Huge weight was not a factor. Iron wagon tires, and horse shoes provided all the compaction needed.

The nicest gravel roads I have seen were built for John David Rockefeller Jr. I'm sure he was quoting from an engineer. His contracts called for drainage as needed. His roadbeds were dry minutes after rain. Then, a layer of 6" stone 12" deep was laid. This was topped with 2" stone 2" above the 6", and ultimately, 3/8" stone formed the surface. Mr. Rockefeller did not mention compaction. The obsession I perceive from his specifications is dryness.

I've owned a parcel for some time plagued with water. Side hill, it should drain effortlessly. The lesson I have learned about roads is "high, and dry". Perennial mud holes become hard roads by draining them, and raising them well above water table. For me, this usually means digging ditches both sides, placing this poor road soil in the middle, elevating the road. Then 12-18" of gravel well crowned forms the road.

Willie

 

[Welder Dave]

If you do compact it with a sheeps foot packer, there shouldn't be any divots if it's fully compacted.

 

[auen1]

I have to get my horses on our place. They are currently boarded, so I am in a fix. In order for any more significant $$$ to be spent, the road has to be put in to an old tobacco barn we will be refurbishing into a horse barn. But to have the $$$ to have the road built, I have to have the $$$ freed from the horses. One BIG Catch 22.

You don't have fences?
KY isn't that cold, couldn't you let the horses run around on the 80 acres.
and open the barn door a little, if the weather gets bad?

Just wondering,

 

[td25c]

I will have roughly 1.5m of roads over the place, when all is said and done, however, I must build about 1/3m of road for barn access before I can do anything. In order to free up $$$,

Yeah ok . 1/3 mile of road to the out buildings / barn might take 400 tons of stone " 20 tri axil " loads to get started around 5" deep & 10 foot wide .


Stone cost in my area would be rite at $ 7000.00 give or take .

Would forget about the geo cloth on this job . Strip the 2 0r 3 inches of top dirt you have with the tractor & implements then bring on the stone trucks .

The geo cloth works great in places and we use it on some jobs and like it . It wont work on a road job where the stone is not thick enough to keep the cloth from crowning in the center of the road due to heavy traffic and you just end up catching it with the grader blade on the tractor . https://www.usfabricsinc.com/products/us-315
It's a complete waste of money on this job .

The road can also lay a little sidewise along the hills , it don't have to be perfectly level .

Keep it simple and do it in stages over several years .

 

[CM1995]

TD beat me too it - fabric is a waste of money on this job for the reasons stated.

Fabric, woven and non-woven has it's place as does geo-grid. I've used them all for soil stabilization. Basically the way geo fabric and grid works is it needs enough weight on top of it to displace or bridge over the soft material underneath. This weight also needs to be spread out evenly. So the crappier the soil is underneath the fabric. the more rock or engineered fill you need on top to "even it out" so to speak in layman's terms.

Two projects where we had to use geo-grid and rip-rap to get a stable base for a Storm Tech system and a parking lot.
https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/threads/a-few-projects-i-have-done-recently.27942/page-18

Putting 4-6" of stone over fabric 12' wide on a drive and expecting the fabric to do anything will be a disappointment.