580SE Power Shuttle Fluid Question

[melben]

If you noticed in the shuttle breakdown the later shuttles use 2 #50 orings and I have chucked the spool up in a lathe and added the second ring on prior models not so equipped, look the bore over carefully and position it so it is in a untouched spot and make an appropriate cutter to match the shape of the original groove. You might be able to fudge just a little on depth to tighten it up a bit but not a lot or it will cut the ring or bind the spool, this would have to be done carefully and just a few thousanths may do the trick . the spool has positive stops on the engagement lever that stop against the housing so you can use those stops to tighten the solenoid up, it will only turn to detent in either direction. If necessary I have used a hammer and a punch on the wrench flat to set them tight. Mel

 

[bowen]

Sure it's not coming from the breather? If not ......... pull it apart again.......... think how much quicker you will be at it this time......
You can tighten the solonoid better if you put the FNR lever into ...... reverse I think. That way the selector plate is on the stops. Same goes for undoing it - but in fwd.

:shf Pull it apart AGAIN ?!:crying

Well I did not look up top but I suppose it could be leaking from the vent. I don't know if that would be good or bad.
If I take that SOB out again I will jack the thing up so I can sit on my butt vs lay on my back.
I have a bad shoulder with a rotator cuff problem at the moment plus I am laying on a piece of cardboard in the hall of a big barn with no water or power.
It's like a one armed man working in the dark with a flashlight.

Also before I pull it out again I will somehow CLEAN the whole thing so I can tell what parts I am working on more clearly. Especially up top where the vent is..
I've never even seen the vent.
In the beginning I thought the leak may have been coming from the vent because I seen oil running down both sides. This time it's NOT overfilled.

I will try to get the solenoid a bit tighter and watch it closely. Right now I am in no mood to pull this rascal out again. Do I have to drain any/all the oil out again to remove the stem?
Even if I took it out I don't know what to look for. I thought I done a proper job replacing the parts.

Mel I will try the punch idea. If it's normal for oil to get up inside the solenoid then I may just need to get this thing tighter.
Looks like it needs another rubber washer or something around the solenoid threads. Was I suppose to put thread sealant on these coarse threads?

Another thing I noticed was oil coming from around the solenoid wires. This was when I had the thing sitting upright draining the oil from within.
But this leak is NOT from around the wires.

Many thanks again for the help. Hopefully others are learning stuff from reading about my problems.
I got to get me a footswitch ordered to work this solenoid because it's good.

My neutral switch is also good. Closed in neutral, and open in Fwd or Rev. Yet the thing still starts in gear, so I suspect there is a jumper someplace.
The jumper is not down at the connector, so this is something I will find later. I don't know why they put a jumper on unless it was giving some trouble?

 

[melben]

That area should be completely dry, no sealers or washers, as others have said check ans find if it coming from the vent, it stands straight on top and has a small metal cover that moves a bit if it is all there and in one piece, if oil was running down both sides that is a possibility.

 

[bowen]

I wish mine had the two o-rings and might look into adding one later.
One other thing I did notice. That little groove that the lip seal fits into was a fair amount wider than the new seal.
Not much play in the groove, maybe .010, but I could see the space and move the new seal on the inside groove shaft

It just appeared that the lip seal needed to be fatter to fill the groove.
Surely Case did not send me the wrong seal. The old one filled the space up, but it appeared squashed down also.
The lip on the old seal did not show at all. ..

I don't know if the seal or the o-ring is leaking, and it might be both.
I just bet my shuttle has a groove worn inside; I should have felt up inside before I put the thing back together.

If the surface inside the shuttle where the lip seal sits was rusty I suspect this could cause a problem. I did not take my valve all the way apart.
Maybe this would be something to look at.

If my spring was weak it would not press the seal as tight when the solenoid was energized, but my solenoid was never energized at all. So now that plunger is pressed up into the valve.
I guess that litty-bitty lip is supposed to be stopping any oil that gets past the o-ring.

Just give me some time to evaluate/eliminate the vent question.:drinkup

 

[rbmiles1]

Many thanks again for the help. Hopefully others are learning stuff from reading about my problems.

Wow Bowen, sounds like you are working hard. I appreciate all the pics and info because as you know I have the same issue.

One question I have (which may be stupid) is can you run it without the solenoid attached? If so that might help you determine where the problem is (O Ring vs Seal).

 

[bowen]

One question I have is can you run it without the solenoid attached? If so that might help you determine where the problem is (O Ring vs Seal).

I suppose I could screw the solenoid off and crank it but it should never go into gear because when the plunger is out, that's neutral.
The spring in the solenoid is strong and (not energized) it pushes the other spring into the shuttle, which is fairly easy to push. If I cranked it, crawled under and pushed the pin in with my finger....
A) That would be really dangerous unless I had the wheels off the ground or whatever.
B) I might get a face full of oil.

But it would be interesting to see how much came out. I am still having trouble accepting that oil gets up into the solenoid at all. That thing has two wires sticking thru a hole in the side.

When the 12V solenoid is energized it "sucks" the larger spring inside away from this plunger letting the smaller spring move the thing out into neutral.
Kinda weird spring notations, with two working opposite of each other. :crazy
I think others have the problem with one or maybe even both of these springs being rusted or stuck, and if the solenoid spring was stuck up inside it would always be in neutral.

I don't see how the valve spring could stick in but if it did.. the thing would always be in gear and the solenoid could not put it into neutral.
BUT as I understand it the hand lever/linkage can ALWAYS put the thing in neutral, no matter what this solenoid plunger is doing.:scool

This is how I understand the thing and if I am wrong with any of these details I'm sure someong smarter will speak up.

 

[bowen]

You can tighten the solonoid better if you put the FNR lever into ...... reverse I think. That way the selector plate is on the stops. Same goes for undoing it - but in fwd.

You are exactly right and this helped me. Tonight I got to work a bit on it, but did not have time to test this.
But I can say the leak is NOT the vent, it's dry up above the solenoid.
But I was able to put the thing in reverse then tighten the solenoid maybe 1/8 a turn.
So... I'm hoping this stops the leak. To see it leak I have to lock the brake and do the heat up crap
which I have decided I don't like.:roll It was near dark before I got to look at this again.

To recap, put the thing in Forward to loosen the solenoid, and reverse to tighten it.:exactly

 

[rbmiles1]

Well thanks to bowen's pics and insights as well as some good weather, I went for it this weekend. It was a frustrating job getting the ball and spring in the detent but I finally did get her back together and so far everyting is nice and dry! My E brake dosen't work (disc was missing when I bought it) so I can't do the "heat up crap" which is probably a good thing. I did drive it for about half a mile (which would usually have it leaking like a sieve) and everything was still dry.

Thank you everyone (especially bowen) for all the information.

 

[alrman]

I did drive it for about half a mile (which would usually have it leaking like a sieve) and everything was still dry.

Good work! You obviously got the seal in right the first time!

 

[melben]

Congrats, it always feels good to see a good outcome. I do take exception however to your "warm up crap" comment. Warming up the power shuttle in no way will hurt the system, it is simply working in the same mode that it would be pushing into a pile. The Case service manuals give us specific instructions to check stall speeds for Hydraulics and Torque Converter "stall speeds". I don't know if you have a misconception of what's going on at stall but in a normally operating unit there is no clutch slippage, just normal TC operation goin on. Clutch pack leakage that doesn't show up cold often is sniffed out by stalling the unit till it reaches operating temp then doing shifts and watching and listening for slow or no clutch response. While you may shudder at the thought, the unit is sturdy enough to take wide open shifts from forward to reverse, not recommended of course but I have seen it done. A stall test is one of the gentler things that happen to a PS unit over it's lifetime and to us Case Techs an invaluable tool to not only diagnose PS problems but to single out engine power problems as well. If I had a dollar for every stall test over the years I could take a couple weeks off. I felt a response was necessary as others glean from our posts and I did not want a misconception to be planted in peoples mind about "stall tests". "stall tests" do not cause problems, simply reveal ones that were there before. Mel

 

[bowen]

I do take exception however to your "warm up crap" comment. Warming up the power shuttle in no way will hurt the system".... "stall tests" do not cause problems, simply reveal ones that were there before. Mel

I am sure you are correct for a machine in tip top shape, and I value your opinion.
Yet with mine for mostly farm usage I am just hoping I never see the leak from a worn housing with normal use.
I really have no idea how much pressure the thing builds in 4th gear with the brake set, but that just seems to be a leak test for my worn out unit.

Alrman still thinks I turned the seal backwards, and he may be right because he is normally right and has helped me a bunch... but for now I am 98% sure I turned it the same way it came out.:stirthepot

I am sure thankful for the help.:exactly

 

[bowen]

My E brake dosen't work (disc was missing when I bought it

It sure is nice having the brake working. I know Case gets a mint for that large disc.
https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/showthread.php?26219-580SE-Parking-Brake-Leak

Does your look like the one in the thread above? This was about my seals leaking, but you can see the related photos.
All I needed was some new pads that I got pretty cheap on EBay I think.

I wonder if you might find the disc used someplace. It's a thick heavy thing and I think the drive shaft universal has to be disconnected to get the thing on/off the splines.
Call the previous owner and see if he took it off and throwed it in the corner...

From a safety standpoint I think I would buy the disc new if I had to. I just want to get my alarm to working, because it seems to me that parking brake pads should last forever so long as you don't forget to take it off.
If I really tighten mine I find I need to unscrew it a tad so that it's not "dragging" when not in use.
I think it's a fine adjustment (handle top screws down) to get the brake to hold when on a hill, but then release fully.
My cable may be worn, but I need to actually push down on mine to fully release the pads.

 

[bowen]

:drinkup
I want to add something to this subject on rebuilding the control valve.
I have just finished putting in a new foot switch for the large solenoid, and in doing this I had to remove the small front floor plate under the brake pedals.
6 or 8 bolts: not real hard to get out.
What I noticed is that this seemed to be a better way to get to the shuttle control valve; especially when trying to get the spring and ball started back on the right side.

I just wondered if anyone else used this vs. working just from underneath. I suppose some have lifts but I have to work on dirt in a barn.
I was able to see the vent etc on mine and even work on some wiring.

 

[alrman]

I suppose some have lifts but I have to work on dirt in a barn.

:lmao You're crackin me up bowen - backhoes have buit in "lifts" - :lmao

BTW - I would not work under your avatar hoe - unless I was in India with a hi vis vest & hard hat .........
PS - get yourself a piece of old carpet or linoleum / vinyl flooring to lie on - make it comfortable as possible mate!

 

[bowen]

BTW - I would not work under your avatar hoe - unless I was in India with a hi vis vest & hard hat ......

Ha! Well I do have leaky lift cylinders. I have the kits but no time to install yet.
I have another problem now...

Remember I replaced the solenoid foor switch and the thumb button. Now with the switch on but not cranked I can HERE the clutch solenoid plunger operate EVERY TIME I push either switch.
BUT... when the thing is running and in gear, I stop the machine--push the switch and push the gas.. it's still in gear. (Forward or reverse)
It's like the clutch solenoid is not working at all.
What could be wrong now??
Below is what I read in the manual. Is this clutch really a clutch or not?

 

[alrman]

Try removing the solonoid & depress the plunger & give it a couple of sharp taps with a small hammer. It may dislodge the dump valve, if it does not free up, you have to pull the valve again bowen. (have you done that the second time yet? )

As I mentioned on page 3 - there is an internal spool valve that dumps the pressure. If the electrics have not worked for a long time, the valve gets sticky & wont move in & out.
When you remove the solonoid & depress the plunger, you should feel the contact with the internal valve, & then depress further. It should make a double clicking noise as you move it in & out.
You will need to remove the outer plunger & flush some solvent throgh the ports while working the valve whith a srewdriver, then lube with oil. If it wont free up, then you will need to dismantle the other end of the control valve to get it out.

 

[bowen]

Try removing the solonoid & depress the plunger & give it a couple of sharp taps with a small hammer. It may dislodge the dump valve, if it does not free up, you have to pull the valve again bowen. (have you done that the second time yet? .

No 2nd time removal as extra tightening on the solenoid fixed the leak.
The end of the valve was real easy to push in, but I never knew there was a 2nd stage at the end on the stroke. I must not really understand the way it works yet. My bad...
And the solenoid/dump valve has not been working in many years.

On page I may have misunderstood. My actual solenoid is what had oil inside. When you told me to plus the plunger I thought we were talking about the solenoid, but I see now you must have been telling me to depress up in the end of the control valve with the plunger and spring out.

I have a small 4oz ballpein hammer that I have never found any use for till now... :bash

 

[bowen]

I am pretty sure the internal valve is stuck after reading also this.
https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/showthread.php?27177-Shuttle-Solenoid-Operation
At some point I will take it all back apart.
I suppose I will next time diassemble the interal portion of the valve also.
Will I possibly need to order a new dump valve, or can these interal part normally be cleaned up and reused?
Mine for sure does not have 2 clicks on the external plunger; just real easy to push in and out.
The hammer did not work and I'm afraid to peck too hard from fear of something getting damaged or stuck inside

 

[bowen]

Try removing the solonoid & depress the plunger & give it a couple of sharp taps with a small hammer. It may dislodge the dump valve, if it does not free up, you have to pull the valve again bowen. (have you done that the second time yet? )

As I mentioned on page 3 - there is an internal spool valve that dumps the pressure. If the electrics have not worked for a long time, the valve gets sticky & wont move in & out.
When you remove the solonoid & depress the plunger, you should feel the contact with the internal valve, & then depress further. It should make a double clicking noise as you move it in & out.
You will need to remove the outer plunger & flush some solvent throgh the ports while working the valve whith a screwdriver, then lube with oil. If it wont free up, then you will need to dismantle the other end of the control valve to get it out.

OK here 16 months later I am finally back to working on this problem.

I hear the valve clunking every time I push the button but it still moves fwd and reverse.

So today I took the large solenoid off and here is what I see with the plunger. (Measurements here are from the threads for the solenoid.)
It's sitting out about 24mm (7/8"+)
I can easily push it in about 8mm so I am now out 16mm. Then the pressure to push it in becomes clearly harder, but still smooth.
I can push it on farther into the shuttle to where I have only ~10mm exposed.
So... 2 stages as you say. But, I do NOT hear any "clicking" noise as you describe.
Now my question is this. Do I hold it in as far as I can and then tap it in farther with a 4 oz hammer?
I actually already tapped it with a soft faced hammer and I could not tell that it broke anything loose so that it went in any further.

What might I break if I hit it too hard, except for my finger holding the rascal in?:bash

I really dread taking the valve back out because I suppose I need to first order some more new seals...
But if this is still your suggestion, I will jump on it. I do have all the oil drained now and supposed to have my new oil cooler tomorrow.
Before I never really determined how to disassemble the inner parts of the shaft assembly.

I have to wonder if the solenoid is just weak somehow, but you have never mentioned this as a possibility.

I sure do wish you lived down the road from me...

Now I also have a power steering cylinder that is pouring oil out and I sure do need to be digging up some stumps.

Just to restate my basic problem. The push-button nor the new foot switch will put it into neutral.

 

[alrman]

If you are feeling extra resistance by depressing the plunger past half way, the inner valve should be moving..... I wonder if the inner valve has been out before & maybe put in the wrong way??? I'm not sure if that is even possible or not.
With the solenoid off the shuttle, the transmission should not engage if selected - what happens if you start it up & try to drive?