1971 Ford 4500 rough running and lots of black smoke

[FordFortyFiveHundred]

Hi folks,

I just bought a 1971 Ford 4500 with the 3 cylinder diesel (201 cu.in.). I have changed the fuel filter and re-bled the injectors, and it still is smoking like crazy. Starts great, has pretty good power, but is smoking like a freight train. I pulled the injectors and looked in the cylinders with a bore scope, all looks good. I have a new set of injectors on the way, but would like other ideas. The smoke is a mixture of black and white, and I thought if it were the rings, the smoke would be blue. I changed the oil when I got the tractor, tons of diesel in the oil. I was thinking I would double check the injection pump timing is set ~0, and check the valves next. I will install the new injectors on Thursday when they arrive. Please let me know where else I should look.

Thanks,
Skip

 

[Welder Dave]

I'd be checking if there is a seal that could be leaking that is letting diesel get into the oil. Maybe a bad injector(s) is causing it.

 

[FordFortyFiveHundred]

I'd be checking if there is a seal that could be leaking that is letting diesel get into the oil. Maybe a bad injector(s) is causing it.

Agreed, the throttle shaft is leaking heavily, so I was wondering if the front of the pump might have a seal that is leaking into the crankcase. I started it up on lunch, and tried pulling out the kill cable slowly to see if I could lean it out to the point where the smoke would stop. No dice, but I did notice a big poof of black smoke when I pushed the cable back in, so I think I am in denial about the color of the smoke. It looks pretty blue to me now, which means piston rings, correct? Is there any value in pulling the injectors and putting in ATF/Marvel? Any value in pulling the head and honing the cylinders with the pistons still in, or just bite the bullet and pull the pistons?

 

[Billrog]

I'm not so sure it would start well if the rings were bad.

 

[FordFortyFiveHundred]

I'm not so sure it would start well if the rings were bad.

Good point. Do you know where I can get a compression tester for the 201 engine? The injectors look like this:

 

[Tones]

CHECK THE AIR CLEANER..

 

[Junkyard]

If there's fuel in the oil check the lift pump. If memory serves there's a mechanical pump on them driven by the cam. As far as smoke you could have injector issues, air cleaner, valve lash etc. I agree, if it was weak compression wise it would be hard to start and not run real great. Rings could be good, might have a bad valve, guides etc.

Dig a bit deeper and let us know whatcha find.

 

[thepumpguysc]

If its BLACK smoking.. Check the cold start device if equipped [thermostart]... its located on the INTAKE manifold & has a small fuel line screwed into it along w/ an electrical line that comes from the key switch.. it may be leaking into the intake causing BLACK smoke AND contributing to your fuel in the oil..
Just something else to worry about.. eeeerr... I mean check..
You can advance the timing to try to get some smoke cleared up.. move the pump about a 1/2-1 line away from the engine..
As far as a compression tester goes.. IF you didn't send your OLD injectors back.. GUT ONE..
Take the top apart & remove the spring & spindle.. make sure the top screw adjuster has a hole in it or drill one.. now reassemble it..
Flip it over & take the bottom nut off.. take the center out of the nozzle[pintle]..
Grind the end of the tip off until you get 1 big hole.. clean & reassemble WITHOUT the pintle..
Your going to have to braze/weld up one of the holes.. either the inlet connector or the return hole..
PERSONALLY I braze the inlet,, & use the top hole to connect/adapt to a compression gauge..
DONT FORGET to use a gauge that goes up to 500 psi.. a GASOLINE gauge will blow up..
Diesel engine compression is over 300 psi.. A gas compr. gauge goes alittle over 100..??

 

[thepumpguysc]

You can BUY the adaptor from NAPA..for 55.00.
There was a discussion about it lastnite on "Tractor by net"..
I'll see if I can find the P#..
found it.. made by LANG.. P#> TU-15-11A
Looks like it comes w/ 3 adaptors.. NICE..

 

[FordFortyFiveHundred]

If there's fuel in the oil check the lift pump. If memory serves there's a mechanical pump on them driven by the cam. As far as smoke you could have injector issues, air cleaner, valve lash etc. I agree, if it was weak compression wise it would be hard to start and not run real great. Rings could be good, might have a bad valve, guides etc.

Dig a bit deeper and let us know whatcha find.

Good ideas, air filter is good I checked that, and makes no difference installed or removed. No lift pump on this model, but I plan to check the valves. How would this cause so much smoke?

 

[FordFortyFiveHundred]

If its BLACK smoking.. Check the cold start device if equipped [thermostart]... its located on the INTAKE manifold & has a small fuel line screwed into it along w/ an electrical line that comes from the key switch.. it may be leaking into the intake causing BLACK smoke AND contributing to your fuel in the oil..
Just something else to worry about.. eeeerr... I mean check..
You can advance the timing to try to get some smoke cleared up.. move the pump about a 1/2-1 line away from the engine..
As far as a compression tester goes.. IF you didn't send your OLD injectors back.. GUT ONE..
Take the top apart & remove the spring & spindle.. make sure the top screw adjuster has a hole in it or drill one.. now reassemble it..
Flip it over & take the bottom nut off.. take the center out of the nozzle[pintle]..
Grind the end of the tip off until you get 1 big hole.. clean & reassemble WITHOUT the pintle..
Your going to have to braze/weld up one of the holes.. either the inlet connector or the return hole..
PERSONALLY I braze the inlet,, & use the top hole to connect/adapt to a compression gauge..
DONT FORGET to use a gauge that goes up to 500 psi.. a GASOLINE gauge will blow up..
Diesel engine compression is over 300 psi.. A gas compr. gauge goes alittle over 100..??

Thanks for the great response. I saw a couple videos about turning an old injector into a compression tester, I may very well so that.

I was wondering what the heck that little line was for, I thought it was the option ether shot. No fuel in the line, and there is a shutoff valve that is closed.

I will definitely check the timing, should be at 0?? Why do you say sorry about? I'm guessing the timing changing on its own is not good....

 

[FordFortyFiveHundred]

You can BUY the adaptor from NAPA..for 55.00.
There was a discussion about it lastnite on "Tractor by net"..
I'll see if I can find the P#..
found it.. made by LANG.. P#> TU-15-11A
Looks like it comes w/ 3 adaptors.. NICE..

Good find! I'll pick one up tomorrow if Napa has it, otherwise make one once the new injectors come in.

 

[FordFortyFiveHundred]

CHECK THE AIR CLEANER..

Done, no change.

 

[thepumpguysc]

90% are set at 0*.. BUT due to gear train wear you may have to advance it slightly..
I've SEEN wonderful things happen to those engines w/ just resetting the valves..
I would grab my feeler gauge first, before moving the pump..

 

[Tinkerer]

Quote "Tons Of diesel in the oil"
The cold start is disabled, no lift pump to be a source of the dilution and no air restrictions. Try three new injectors to see if it improves. It is probably due for them anyway. If that doen't fix it it is time to remove the injector pump and send it to pumpguysc before that oil dilution destroys the engine. If it hasn't already.

 

[FordFortyFiveHundred]

90% are set at 0*.. BUT due to gear train wear you may have to advance it slightly..
I've SEEN wonderful things happen to those engines w/ just resetting the valves..
I would grab my feeler gauge first, before moving the pump..

Good idea, I'll adjust install the new injectors this afternoon, they adjust the valves, and make note of the IP advance setting and report back.

 

[FordFortyFiveHundred]

Quote "Tons Of diesel in the oil"
The cold start is disabled, no lift pump to be a source of the dilution and no air restrictions. Try three new injectors to see if it improves. It is probably due for them anyway. If that doen't fix it it is time to remove the injector pump and send it to pumpguysc before that oil dilution destroys the engine. If it hasn't already.

I will try new injectors this afternoon. The backhoe was neglected for 7 years before I bought it, and the fuel was left on most of the time. Since changing the oil, I see/smell no more diesel in the oil. Since the outside of the pump is leaking though, I have to assume the front seal could be leaking too.

 

[FordFortyFiveHundred]

Definitely IP timing is set to 0 degrees:

 

[FordFortyFiveHundred]

Need help! New injectors, no change. Adjusted valves, cylinder 3 was super loose, bent push rod. Had to crank the adjuster down all the way, but it is at .017 now. Going to try adjusting the ip next. Any more ideas?

 

[FordFortyFiveHundred]

Pulled the head, bent valve and pulled valve seat on the exhaust valve of cylinder 3. Small crack between the intake valve and head bolt hole, hopefully the machine shop can doctor it up. Thank you all for your help!