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120 tonne All terrain crane recomendations

Discussion in 'Cranes' started by Waldskin, Nov 11, 2017.

  1. Waldskin

    Waldskin Member

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    Hi everyone, New to the forum. Just looking for some knowledge from you experts. I am in the market for a 120 us tonne (ish) crane.

    I have a modular home manufacturing company, So I am more interested in the charts around the 100' of stick area with 20k-40k pounds of lift. So far the cranes that have been peeking my interest are Liebherr ltm1100, Grove 5120b, and Tadano 110g-5

    I am just looking for some opinions from operators that have run those cranes or have suggestions of other cranes. I live in British columbia Canada, And will most likely be importing A crane. We have tough road restrictions around here and a boom dolly is a must. I am hoping to get a crane that I can keep some counterweight on the dolly to do 90% of the jobs as a taxi crane without trucking the balance off the counterweight.

    Thanks
     
  2. crane operator

    crane operator Senior Member

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    sw missouri
    In my state, (Missouri), no counterweight is allowed on a dolly. Oversize permits are issued only for non reducible loads, if the weight can go on a trailer, you can't get the permits to haul it with you. I have no idea what B.C. rules are, you'll need to see what the local crane guys are doing.

    If your in the hilly areas- which is most of BC, just be aware that a lot of counterweight on a dolly turns the AT's into a real dog. You are going to need spreader bars, and counterweight, mats, and rigging. I don't see you getting all that on the crane, so if you have to have a support truck anyways, why not have it haul the counterweight? Most guys have one dedicated truck/ trailer combo with mats, base counterweights, and spreader bars/ rigging; then a second load if they need all the weights (in that crane size).

    As far as the liebherr/ grove/ tadano thing: think dodge, gm, ford (pickups). I've been in liebherr and grove AT's. Both are good rigs, probably both german "over-enginnered" on some things, but they're million dollar machines (new) so there usually aren't drastic things wrong. I'd probably take the liebherr over the gmk just because I prefer solid axles to the mega track suspension, from a reliability/ durability standpoint. I'd say the liebherrs are the more "cadillac" of the two- and slightly better built.

    The guys that have tadano's really like them. I looked at a older tadano this summer, the guys selling it bought a new tadano to replace it, and the operators didn't want the old one to go. There are very few tadano's in my area.

    If you're just doing the modular's- no outside work, you can cut down on the rigging you will have to take with you, renting out for other works means you bring all kinds of stuff with you.

    I've often thought a dedicated straight truck, with maybe a extra cheater axle or two, with about a 18'-20' bed, (maybe even a little bigger), would be much nicer than a full semi truck/trailer combo. You could put your base load of 20-30k on it, plus your mats and make a rack for your spreader bars, a couple toolboxes under the bed for rigging. If/ when I step to that size, its probably what I'll do. It is much easier to get around a crowded job site with a dump truck sized straight truck, than a full tractor trailer, and its much harder to get stuck.

    If you tear up rear ends/ trans, pulling hard with the crane dragging around counterweight and dolly, its a much more expensive repair, than fixing a support truck or truck trailer combo.

    Probably the only other thing I myself would have to have, is telma brake or engine brakes. A lot of AT's only have automatic transmission retardars, and I live in a area with a lot of short, really steep hills. The auto trans retarders will not stay cool, you'll cook a transmission with one, and you'll end up wearing out the regular brakes. I'm going to bet BC has much the same terrain, so I would hold out for one with telma. Its another reason to also get the weight off the crane.

    This is something like what I'm planning on for a "base" support truck. This one is a mack with around 24' of frame- 400hp 18 speed. Its probably allowed 60,000 gross, truck would weigh probably 20-25,000 with a flatbed. Put the counterweights over the tandems, mats in front, bars on a rack on the rear or headache rack area. Jobbox and/ or under the bed toolbox. Would save from dragging around a 15,000lbs trailer for not a lot of extra payload.

    It's a $10,000 truck- that wouldn't even begin to pay for a transmission repair to a AT crane.

    [​IMG]

    Most of the large crane companies don't do this kind of rig, because they have multiple different big cranes, all with their own counterweights, so they just have multiple trailers and only a couple tractor/ power units. I'm not in that situation, so could live with two dedicated trucks. One for base load, one for cheeks.

    The downside of a dedicated truck, is if the truck is down, so is the crane, unless you transfer the load. If your a truck/ trailer combo, you just drag the dead truck out from underneath, hook up another truck to the trailer, and off you go.
     
    RangerJake72 likes this.
  3. crane operator

    crane operator Senior Member

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    Just because I'm curious, why import? I suppose its easier to drive one across the border from seattle?

    I've just been seeing a lot of cranes from alberta for sale, with the low oil prices, those frac outfits are hurting, and I would think that would be a cheaper alternative., Plus the exchange rate right now isn't very favorable either. I know to bring cranes the other way, epa labels on the engines are important.
     
  4. Waldskin

    Waldskin Member

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    Location:
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  5. Waldskin

    Waldskin Member

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    I have not had much luck finding anything in alberta. So far I have just been looking on the major equipment websites like Maskus, heavy equipment trader, and machinery trader. I will start talking to some dealers in a couple of weeks when I confirm the money is coming in to buy the crane. Just a curiosity question, Where have you been seeing Alberta cranes for sale
     
  6. crane operator

    crane operator Senior Member

    Joined:
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    Location:
    sw missouri
    [​IMG]
    Lot # 1116
    2001 LIEBHERR LTM1080-1L 100 Ton 8x8x8 All Terrain Crane
    Meter Reads: 188,002 Km*
    Details: crane s/n 061508, 16230 upper eng hrs, tilt cab, Liebherr 40 ton 3 sh... More details
    EDMONTON, AB
    Thursday Mar 2, 2017
    Sold for: upload_2017-11-12_17-18-17.png CAD
    | upload_2017-11-12_17-18-17.png USD
    [​IMG]
    Lot # 1115
    2000 LIEBHERR LTM1120-1 160 Ton 10x10x10 All Terrain Crane
    Meter Reads: 109,702 Km*
    Details: crane s/n 067045, Liebherr 924 T-E 4 cyl upper, 15306 upper e... More details
    EDMONTON, AB
    Thursday Mar 2, 2017
    Sold for: upload_2017-11-12_17-18-17.png CAD
    | upload_2017-11-12_17-18-17.png USD
    [​IMG]
    Lot # 1114
    2000 LIEBHERR LTM1160-2 160 Ton 10x6x10 All Terrain Crane
    Meter Reads: 10,717 Km*
    Details: crane s/n 068043, Liebherr D924TI-E 4 cyl upper, 11320 upper e... More details
    EDMONTON, AB
    Thursday Mar 2, 2017
    Sold for: upload_2017-11-12_17-18-18.png CAD
    | upload_2017-11-12_17-18-18.png USD
    [​IMG]
    Lot # 1113
    2006 LIEBHERR LTM1220 220 Ton 10x8x10 All Terrain Crane
    Meter Reads: 46,255 Km*
    Details: Liebherr D924TI-E 4 cyl upper, 1 sheave block, 197 ft 6 sec boom, 72 ... More details
    EDMONTON, AB
    Thursday Mar 2, 2017
    Sold for: CAD
    |USD
     
  7. crane operator

    crane operator Senior Member

    Joined:
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    Location:
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    [​IMG]
    Lot # 2983
    2004 DEMAG AC160-1 160 Ton 10x8x8 All Terrain Crane
    Meter Reads: 16,719 Km*
    Details: crane s/n 83022, Mercedes-Benz OM904 4 cyl upper, 2735 upper e... More details
    EDMONTON, AB
    Tuesday Apr 25, 2017
    Sold for: upload_2017-11-12_17-20-12.png CAD
    | upload_2017-11-12_17-20-12.png USD
    [​IMG]
    Lot # 2985
    2001 LIEBHERR LTM1080-1 100 Ton 8x8x8 All Terrain Crane
    Meter Reads: 136,515 Km*
    Details: crane s/n 061210, 6 cyl upper, tilt cab, 330 kg 5 sheave block, 58 to... More details
    EDMONTON, AB
    Tuesday Apr 25, 2017
    Sold for: upload_2017-11-12_17-20-12.png CAD
    | upload_2017-11-12_17-20-12.png USD
    [​IMG]
    Lot # 2984
    1993 LIEBHERR LTM1120 120 Ton 10x6x8 All Terrain Crane
    Meter Reads: 162,000 Km*
    Details: crane s/n 0022409, Mercedes-Benz 366A 165 hp upper, rooster sheav... More details
    EDMONTON, AB
    Tuesday Apr 25, 2017
    Sold for: upload_2017-11-12_17-20-12.png CAD
    | upload_2017-11-12_17-20-12.png USD
     
  8. crane operator

    crane operator Senior Member

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    Those are from april and march of this year at ritchie bros auctions in edmonton.
     
  9. Kiwi-truckwit

    Kiwi-truckwit Well-Known Member

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    Location:
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    Obviously at this end of the globe we do things a little different to you guys trucking wise, but what crane operator suggested is pretty much exactly what we do with a number of our cranes. The base weight, plus any additional slabs we can carry, plus mats, go on a truck, and more slab goes on a pull trailer behind that truck. Any additional weight over that will be thrown on a semi.
    We run Groves over here, they're a bit cheaper and there's local support, unlike Liebherr. The leibherrs are nice cranes though. The larger tadanos are a bit heavy, I only know of one around this area and it requires a boom trailer, whereas the others don't.
    Our cranes carry a selection of rigging, as they often go out with no counterweight, in the absence of smaller cranes. Anything more specialised, including spreader bars, stays at the workshop until it's required for a job.
     
  10. Waldskin

    Waldskin Member

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    Unfortunately there is no all terrain's coming up in local (ish) Auctions. I missed the big oilfield crash by about a year


    Thanks, I will make sure to look into the weights. Even with no counterweight, All the All terains around here have to run a boom dolley
     
  11. crane operator

    crane operator Senior Member

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    The crash is far from over, Ritchie bros just had a auction in houston, and there's a bunch more coming up. Here's a nice 150 ton in minnesota, there's a bunch of all terrains on that sale, but most are bigger than you're after.

    Just for fun, you can look at the repair sheet for it in the last 5 years, the total bill for their own repairs in that time is $122,000. About $25,000 per year, which is pretty close. I would say the next 5 in that crane's life would be more expensive, I didn't see a full engine or trans repair/rebuild.

    https://www.rbauction.com/1998-DEMA...invId=10279984&id=ci&auction=EAGAN-MN-2017429

    [​IMG]

    https://www.rbauction.com/digital_m...t/ee/ee0f81e3-c385-4fc0-9b36-446f890751e0.pdf
     
  12. crane operator

    crane operator Senior Member

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    Here's another record of repairs, for a liebherr 200 ton. I find it interesting there's four years in the record with no repairs (2009-2013), either they rented it out somewhere else, or they weren't using the same record keeping. No way they went 4 years with no use/ repairs.

    https://www.rbauction.com/digital_m...t/1c/1cd86ce1-4414-4ea9-8a35-54b0313e686c.pdf

    Also in the labor portion of the bills, they only charge themselves from 25-35/ hr, using their own mechanics. I'm just pointing this out, because I don't know if you've ever owned a crane, and know the upkeep costs involved. If your paying a dealer for the support, just tack a 1 on the front of that hourly cost.

    Roughly 8 years at $246,000 (4 years missing, 2005-2017), $30,000 per year. $70,000 of the total was labor. at a average of 30/hr. I didn't add the total hours up , but its roughly 2,000hours. If you were paying dealer rates of 120/ hour, instead of 70,000 for labor, that's 240,000. making a total of 416,000 for 8 years= 52,000/ year average in repairs for a all terrain.

    That's probably a better estimate than the 150 ton at the 25,000. You should probably figure around 40,000, per year, just in average repairs. That's no fuel, tires, or operator/ riggers/ labor. Just parts and putting them on.

    If you need a set of tires, that's 3k per tire for 10 tires= 30,000 in one shot, so look for a used crane with new tires on it, when you have to replace them, that throws that years numbers all out of whack. (and I don't think I saw a replacement of tires on either crane in their cost sheets.) They may have accounted for them in a different way.

    Impact (who posts on here from time to time) would have a better handle on his costs for larger AT's than I do, but I remember, a repair quote for a new telescope cylinder (his was damaged), and if I remember right it was almost 6 figures.
     
  13. Hank R

    Hank R Senior Member

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    Thanks Crane Operator for information as to crane costs i am surprized at the cost here. never owned or operated one just interested in they.
     
  14. Knepptune

    Knepptune Senior Member

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    Those cranes are big money. Make big money, spend big money. Heck some of the engines are 40-50k for a rebuildable block. Company just spent 125k on a boom repair on their gmk4115. Boom cylinder got out of sync and got bent.

    That being said I'll probably always be a grove man. Good factory support is key and I know grove has that.

    I will say something important to remember is that getting those things repaired often involves flying someone in If there's no one close. AT crane mechanics are not on every corner. And you have to go through grove factory training to get access to the service manuals.

    The service manuals have big bold letters on every page. NOT FOR PUBLIC RELEASE. They do have really good service manuals.

    The older ones didn't even have service manuals. Circuit diagrams and parts manuals were all you were getting.

    Hopefully we're not scaring you. Those cranes are money makers. They just cost alot more to operate and repair then your regular truck cranes.
     
  15. crane operator

    crane operator Senior Member

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    I think that stinks. Think of all those old grove manuals, that showed how to do everything. There's no reason that when they sell you a million dollar crane, that they shouldn't provide that full manual to the buyer.

    I too have scratched my head with only a electrical diagram and hydraulic schematic, trying to interpret german, on a old krupp 5130. That's no fun at all.
     
  16. Knepptune

    Knepptune Senior Member

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    Ye I only found that out recently. They won't release the manuals to a company. They are released on a thumb drive to individual. And only after said individual has completed the gmk training.
     
  17. Junkyard

    Junkyard Senior Member

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    So which one of us is going to get "trained" and then accidentally leak the manuals? :)
     
  18. Impact

    Impact Senior Member

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    Two major repairs on my GMK 5165.

    Leaking extend cylinder inside the boom. Didn't have the time to make the repairs myself. Hired it out. $75K. Did do a couple of other things.

    Driveline from rear of transmission to drop box. Rear u-joint broke in half at the drop box allowing the tail of the drive line to fall. Shocked the tranny. Part of the inside of the transmission came to the outside. Another 75K.

    But last year I was fortunate enough to leave it on one job for several months on work that I didn't even have contracted. Add my contract work to it, and it was a good year.
     
  19. Waldskin

    Waldskin Member

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    Thanks a lot for all the good info guys. I had a pretty good idea of the maintenance costs. I figured that most of the time it would be rented out at an average of 375 an hour.
    50 an hour for maintenance
    50 an our for operator (which will be me eventually)
    30 an hour for fuel
    20 an hour for insurance, Pick up truck fuel.
    25 an hr for misc

    which leaves 200 an hour towards paying for the crane.
    All the numbers are Canadian dollars!!!

    I hope my math is not out to lunch.