Here it comes

[Dozer575]

Soon there's gona be alot of good buys on equipment
http://catstockblog.com/2009/01/cali...rail-stimulus/

[stumpjumper83]

I think that what should happen is instead of blocking all but tier three equipment they should start out with say all equipment 11 years old and older, and progressivly make it strickter. For instance next year you must have a tier one motor, then 2 years from now you must run tier 2 or better.

Whats going to happen with the current system is only the big guys are going to be able to spring for all new equipment, and not get burnt ont heir old stuff, just ship it out of state. A ton of little guys are going to get screwed if its a straight across the board rule.

But then if government had common sense, we would have to call them something else.

[Deas Plant]

Hi, Stumpjumper83.
You might like to visit this site:

http://jimball.com.au/

or this one, from the same site:

http://jimball.com.au/Warming.htm

for some other views of global warming and CO2 emissions. There are several articles on that first page and links to other articles as well.

I doubt that you will meet very many Cal. state 'pollies' there.

[stumpjumper83]

Good info as usual Deas, thanks

My brother is getting his Phd paid for @ purdue for his work on diesel emmissions work. Well, all of his college has been free so far... Stuff like water injection on 4 & 6 cycle timing, very high injection pressures and multi stage injections, and re working the sensors so they can read and adjust better.

The whole thing is really a face saving operation if you ask me. They are tageting people like the truckers and construction people cause suposedly they use the engine to make a living and can afford the expense.

If you ask me, more of an impact would be made for getting the cars that leave a blue cloud at the intersection, or hot rod diesel 4x4, that are turned to the max off the road rather than targeting a guy trying to make a living with a non teir, clean running piece of equipment.

In some cases, the tier 3 motors are less efficient than a non tier motor, its just that the particulat polutants that they are targeting are lower than the non tier motor, I know it makes sense right... anyhow, I have a deere to fix...

[Randy Krieg]

Deas, You are a Genius!!!
That was a long read, but so worth it. Thank You, Thank You, Thank You for posting that link. I wish you and Jeff Ball would come here and run for President and VP. You would get my vote. Al Gore is getting filthy rich from his GW scam and that's all it is, nothing, but a scam. Send me your money and I'll stop Global Warming? Right! I can't believe the morons that are falling for this scam........ Have you ever seen the Email titled "Two Homes"?

On the project that I'm presently working they drilled 1900 feet deep before they got through the "permafrost". You won't here this kind of news on CNN, CBS, ABC, NBC, Newsweeks or the others. Thank God more and more people are learning the truth. Follow the Money?
Thanks again Randy.....Palin & Deas Plant 2012!!!!!!!!!!!!!You got my vote buddy.

[Dozer575]

Either way we got the enviro nuts in control now. I'm just looking forward to some real good buys as far as equipment goes. Especially with the price of scrap down so low now.

[Deas Plant]

Hi, Randy.
Me a genius? No, M8. I didn't take the time and trouble to put that stuff together. Other people did that. I just happen to know where to find that particular site. I'd bet that a Google search would turn up a lot more of it too.

Yes, I have seen the e-mail, "Two Homes". It's a pity it didn't get a LOT publicity during Bush Jnr's time in office, especially during the election 'auctioneering'. The fact that it and a LOT of other stuff get that airing didn't seems to say a LOT about the 'impartiality' and the fair-mindedness(???????) of the 'Meejya', methinks.

Unfortunately, I am unable to accept your nomination as VP, not having been born on U.S. soil - - - - - although Australia is almost another state or territory. LOL. Maybe I'm being a bit big-headed here but I don't think I'd do any worse than some I could name. Then again, I don't think you would do any worse either. Maybe a LOOOONNNNGGGG way better. P'raps we can persuade that living fossil up in Talkeetna to stand up and be counted. LOL.

Hi, Stumpjumper83.
Methinks they would do a LOT more good by tossing the Lima Agreement out the window and making countries like India and China, et al, toe the line a bit more on emissions. Remember the hullabulloo about the athletes being able or unable to breathe during the Beijing Olympics? If you think L.A.'s smog problem is crook, .....................................

They're going after the 'little fellers' 'cos they don't have the means and the wherewithall to fight back. From the transport industry's viewpoint, I wonder what would happen if all the stationary, food, booze and coffee suddenly stopped getting through to Ca. state parliament.

Hmmmmmmmmm. Interesting thought. Do you know anybody in the teamster's union out that way?

I hope your brother has the gonads and the perception to tell it like it is regarding emissions, 'greenhouse gases', etc..

[digger242j]

My brother is getting his Phd paid for @ purdue for his work on diesel emmissions work.

Maybe you could ask him this--if we quit concentrating on emissions, and concentrated instead on making all engines as fuel efficient as they could be, how much would that reduce our oil consumption? Not that low emissions and fuel efficiency are mutually exclusive, but I'm sure that some fuel efficiency is compromised on the way to keeping emissions low. I just wonder how much. And I think in the big picture, it's how much oil we need to buy that's hurting us more than how much exhaust we breath.



[on edit: Comment deleted, for lack of context]

[AusDave]

Originally Posted by Deas Plant

Hi, Stumpjumper83.
You might like to visit this site:

http://jimball.com.au/

or this one, from the same site:

http://jimball.com.au/Warming.htm

for some other views of global warming and CO2 emissions. There are several articles on that first page and links to other articles as well.

I doubt that you will meet very many Cal. state 'pollies' there.

Hi Deas and all.

There is a lot of comment on this thread and well everywhere really, about how politicians are really to blame for most of the ills we are subject to such as the emissions regulations in California. Unfortunately I don't buy it. And before you rise up and curse my naive wrongheadedness let me tell you why.

A couple of days ago I went to observe a community meeting about some traffic problems in a small area in the small village in which I live. The gist of the problem was that there had been a few trucks and other vehicles using the road as a bit of a shortcut and there were some roads in this development which were poorly planned and very narrow. This meant in some situations you would have to mount the rollover kerb to avoid a vehicle that didn't give you enough room. In doing so you could hit the edge of the drainage inlet and bust a tyre. Basically some grates on the drainage inlets and a bit of signage would go a long way to solving the problem.

However the local residents could see they had an audience and they were going for broke. If new roads, closures of roads and other massive engineering works were not done then there would be kiddies dead in the streets, houses with trucks crashing into lounge rooms, mothers with prams slaughtered by trucks, in short it would be the Gaza strip invasion carnage all over again.

There were a few local pollies present from the local Council, one them, notorious for his populist tendencies and a former mayor, had been listening to what hairbrained scheme suggested by the residents drew the most applause from them. At the first opportunity he got up and proclaimed that he supported the most hairbrained scheme and would do what ever he could to make it happen. (Implicit in this response was the hope that this would get some votes to help him get to be mayor again).

Unfortunately this happens in a larger scale all over the world. The community gets the Politicians they deserve and these ordinary community people generally have unreal expectations about what they hope to receive in the way of personal benefit for themselves without a thought to what it may cost others. The Pollies are just reflecting the people in the street. Very few of them lead, they just follow public opinion. And its so easy if you are media savvy, to wind up the public with a bit of fear on so many issues and before you know it a politician will be there to support those people having their particular grievance made into a LAW or Ordinance with the requisite number of lawyers, impenetrable pages of detailed regulations and of course a schedule of fees, charges and penalties.

My friends, I don't have an easy solution to this problem apart from there being a lot less people on this earth. It seems us humans when we get crammed closer and closer together behave in strange ways and will use up a lot of resources that future generations will only read about in books or on the Internet.

As for global warming, I'm sure everyone can find a website that matches their own views, but personally, my parent's region where they farm in the state of Victoria, Australia has never in recorded history been so dry, hot and lacking the normal seasonal behaviour that I grew up expecting to never see change. The weather is changing in some places and fast. I think when insurance companies start factoring in climate change into their premiums, which they are now doing, it doesn't matter what you think, it's going to cost us anyway.

As for California, it's a bit of a test bed for us all. (Tough if you live there with an old diesel though). There's gonna be many mistakes as things change over time but also I hope some good developments and I guess the Internet and forums like this will enable us to hear and see it all.

Apologies for the length of this post, regards Dave

[RHIT02]

Perhaps not the most popular response but emission requirements have driven a lot of research and development of engines over the years. Although some would argue that electronics are not a great addition to an engine the development of turbo chargers, high pressure injectors, etc.. would be no where near where it is today if emission regs didn't drive companies to invest in the technology.

Tier 4 emission technology though I think is an example of going too far... The idea that air coming out of the stack is cleaner than what goes into the air cleaner is too much, especially given the impact it has on fuel consumption, performance and cost.

[JDOFMEMI]

The way it has historically worked is that the rules were put on manufacturers to produce cleaner running engines, and through normal fleet attrition, these would replace the dirtier older engines. The companies that have operations that work lots of hours are constantly replacing their machines anyway, so the ones used the most are usually late madel, clean running engines. The used machines these large companies sell or trade work their way to the contractors who unless they are quite large, usually put less hours on them. When they are no longer productive for the contractor, then usually they go to a small operator or property owner to finish out their life over many years, with only a little use each year.

As the machine ages, its use per year drops off, and the newer, cleaner machines are getting most of the hours.

Now we have a situation where ALL machines that get used over 100 hours per year need to be replaced of retrofitted. The large companies that replace their machines regularly already do this, so it is of minimal concern to them. The mid size contractor who typically buys a used machine is now bearing the brunt of this cost, as now he needs a new machine whether he has work for it for 5,000 hrs per year, od 200 hrs per year.
The very small user, the property owner or owner operator with one machine is not affected as much, as there are exemptions for them. Although the opportunities for the owner operator will get limited as more jobs require tier 3 or newer machines or you can't work there.
The average sitework contractor is bearing the brunt of this reegulation, because most of them do not do a volume of work to justify the payments on brand new iron, and if they do, they likely fall in the larger first catagory.
For a contractor doing small to mid sized jobs, the only way he can get the work is by using older, less expensive iron, as the jobs are not of a long enough duration to pay off a new piece, and if it does not work for just a short while, it will choke you with the payments.

The real kicker here is that when all the studies were done, they found that just the federal rules on the manufacturers would get the emissions to the same place by normal fleet retirement only a few years later than this massive retrofit and replacement they have enacted. I think it was 3 or 4 years to get to THE SAME PLACE!!

Now we have been forced down a road that will break the backs of many small to mid sized companies, as they will not be able to finance the amount of new equipment and retrofits that the law says we need just to operate.

By the way, as a side benefit, the mid sized fleet I have spent 20 years getting to a nice size, is now worth less than half of what it was a short time ago, because even though it has been maintained and cared for, a majority of it is now not viable, nor is there a market to sell it, so the value counted on for many reasons has evaporated.

I was raised that by working harder than the next guy you could get ahead and succeed, but it has only taken a few pen strokes by people not even elected but appointed as all knowing, to wipe out all the gains of the last 10 years or more.

I see a lot of opportunity for the large national and multinational companies with unlimited financing to come into the state and take most of the work formerly done by the members of our local contracting community.

Sorry for the rant, but it is aggravating, and there seems to be no stopping it, and it is spreading to your state next. 17 states signed up at last count.

[Dozer575]

Its all got nothin to do with what they say it does. Its all a well orchastrated agenda, to enslave and remove all freedoms etc. Maybe you all will like this.
http://www.businessandmedia.org/arti...204144819.aspx

[catstockblog]

Wanted to say hi and thanks to all who stopped by my Caterpillar blog.

This thread has been very enlightening. I mostly watch Cat's financials but it's nice to get the perspectives of folks who actually use the equipment.

[Deas Plant]

Hi, Dozer575.
Thank you for posting that link. I found it interesting that Al Gore was inciting the youth of not just the U.S.A. but the whole world to ignore their parents and get on his bandwagon.

I also found it interesting that Glen Beck compared Al Gore's call to the children to Nazi Germany (under Hitler), Soviet Russia and Mussolini's Italy.

For another perspective on Al Gore, you might like to check this link:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/bush/house.asp
for information on the 'Two Homes' e-mail that JDOFMEMI mentioned.

[Deas Plant]

Hi, AusDave.
Thank you for your views on the issues being discussed here - although I personally think that this thread would be more appropriately placed in the TGIF forum as it does not specifically apply to dozers as such. Just my 0.02 on this tiny minor point.

I have never blamed politicians for the global warming fetish that we are currently seeing. I blame a radical group of 'enviro-nazis', splinters of which can be found under different names all over the world. These people, some eminent scientists among them - as well as some politicians - have made a LOT of noise about a topic that the average John and Mary Citizen have little chance of making any sense of because of the super-abundance of conflicting information.

The 'meejya' isn't helping in all this either because they mostly are running an agenda, usually to sell copy and advertising or to get people to listen and/or watch and see the adverts from which they make their money. Sensationalism almost always gets more attention than the truth.

I have made two trips in the last 8 months to sunny California. It seems to be that a lot what I have seen of the trucking industry over there is going to be hit hard by these new regulations because there are a LOT of older trucks on their roads. Large lumps of the trucking industry over there could safely be called, "The Travelling Antique Road Show". BUT, it WAS politicians who passed the laws and regulations. Hence my musing in post #7 about what might happen if deliveries to the Ca. parliament stopped.

Likewise, I have seen a LOT of older tractors and machines in my wanderings around Ca.. What are they to do? And the same applies to DownUnder in time to come unless a reasonable degree of common sense is applied and soon.

Just my 0.02.