Newbie Earth Moving Question

Fishin'Rod · 01-11-2009, 12:45 AM

I love the forum and have been lurking for quite a while.

I would like to build a 5 acre pond to an average depth of eight feet. Location is in loam soil in central Kansas with no rocks.

I can construct an embankment dam for only about two feet of pond depth before I impound water onto the neighbor's property. I would then have to dig about six feet (net) over 5 acres. By my math, this is moving 48,400 yards of material. The property is 160 acres, so I could grade the spoils immediately adjacent to the pond and level out the gentle valley.

This project leads me to many questions for you experts.

First, if I can only afford one piece of equipment, what would be the best piece for the job? I have been reading the track loader forum, and this would probably be the most versatile piece of equipment for me to have around the farm. However, can it do this much true digging, or do I need to decide between a dozer or an excavator?

Secondly, and more importantly, can a newbie be trusted to run heavy equipment? This is nearly flat ground and I would not have to clear any trees. I am a geologist and about 1/2 of a petroleum engineer. I have pretty good book smarts and decent street smarts, but I have never been around anyone operating heavy equipment. I am a diligent person, if the manual says to change the oil filter at 100 hours, I guarantee that it will be changed on schedule. It is all of the stuff that isn't in the manual that concerns me. Phrase your answers for a guy that right now doesn't know which foot pedal does what.

In my experience, the best way to learn is by doing. However, if the job took me five times as long as a contractor, then I would probably be better off paying to have the job done. I have several larger projects that I could tackle if the first project goes well, so I would like to be able to do it by myself.

There are several dealers in the area that rent dozers, loaders (track or wheel), and excavators by the week or month. I would not trust myself to buy a piece of heavy equipment, because I just could not evaluate its condition. However, if I rented something that ran well for four weeks, would I then be able to make a smart purchase decision? Can a decent mechanic evaluate equipment to some certainty, or is too much of the wear and tear hidden in the engine, tracks, etc?

Is this project feasible for a total newbie? There is no time constraint on completing the project, and I would be able to ask questions on this forum to get my learning curve going a little steeper.

Any advice about equipment, operating, and best earthmoving practices would be greatly appreciated.

P.S. I don't have thin skin, please be completely blunt in your responses rather than beat around the bush.

milling_drum · 01-11-2009, 01:57 AM

I suggest you start with a fairly small piece of equipment, a bobcat or a mini excavator, as you get better on them and learn the scope of the project, if you have money graduate to something bigger. If you buy an older medium sized used dozer or excavator as a starter, depending on the condition of them, you might not learn as easily the feel for power and controls.

Deas Plant · 01-11-2009, 03:44 AM

Hi, Fishin'Rod.
Wellkum too ther 4um.

Int'restin' kwestyun(s).

Firstly, unless you plan on resurrecting Big Muskie, any sort of excavator/face shovel/dragline is out of the question for the area that you plan to work, UNLESS you also want a small fleet of trucks to work with it. Excavators do a good job quite efficiently WITHIN THEIR OWN WORKING RADIUS. To move material greater distances, they must either handle it twice - or more - or have haulage units or a conveyor system working with them.

That still leaves a few options to choose from, dozers, track and wheel loaders and scrapers being the main ones. Of these, the loaders would be far and away the most versatile and either wheels or tracks would handle the job in loam soils. A 4-in-1 bucket fitted with teeth and a rear-mounted ripper make them pretty much able to look after themselves in most situations. As well, you have a pretty handy crane, a very useful over-grown wheelbarrow or small pick-up that will go places where your average BIG American pick-up doesn't even know exist, a road grader and fetch-n-carry machine for most occasions. A loader will be out earning its keep while a dozer will still be sitting in the shed eating into your bank account.

Yes, a total greenhorn CAN do a job such as you describe, IF your university/college 'edjewmackayshun' hasn't knocked every last vestige of common sense out of you, which I find to be the case with a lot of supposedly learned people. There is a lot of REAL knowledge and experience available for the asking on this forum, as well as my 'play' knowledge. LOL. (I've been a 'kid in a sand pit' for over 40 years.)

A loader, either wheeled or tracked, will not move dirt as efficiently as a dozer. How-wevver, it will move it quite adequately when worked in a similar fashion to a dozer. They are also relatively stable on side slopes, given a reasonable measure of care and caution. Filling the tires 3/4 full water makes a wheeled loader a much more stable machine and far bgetter able to put its 'grunt' on the ground, but you may need to consider some sort of anti-freeze for your winters. (I live in Australia where those problems seldom arise.)

An elevating scraper would probably be the most efficient for the distances involved in the task that you describe. How-wevver, there may not be a lot of work for it once you have the pond finished so, if you chose to go that way, a rental machine or a buy-do-and sell might be the way to go.

Hope this has given you some food for thought. Please feel free to ask any other questions that may occur to you as you digest this. I'm a LONG way from being the only one here who will stick their hand up and give you some answers or ideas.

stumpjumper83 · 01-11-2009, 07:29 AM

With 160 acres do you have any farm tractors? If you have something 100hp or bigger, pull pans start to become an option. Even a 5 yd. pan and a farm tractor could put a large dent it in...

special tool · 01-11-2009, 07:53 AM

Probably I'd go with a big loader, 977 or 973.
The Dozer might move dirt faster, but my oinion is that the loader is more forgiving of newbie mistakes because you can always pick up your mistake and start over.***

fensoncont. · 01-11-2009, 12:49 PM

In my opinion for constructing a pond with one piece of equipment on these distances a small self loading scraper seems to be the most fesable. A dozer would be my second option, it could be done with a dozer. I don't think an excavator would be very good for this project, as someone else said you have to have dump trucks matched with the excavator.

30 dirty years · 01-11-2009, 02:05 PM

This sounds like quite a project for one man and one machine.

Fishin'Rod · 01-11-2009, 05:27 PM

Guys, thanks for all of the advice.

30 dirty years,

Yes, I am worried it is too big for one guy. However, I don't have to work it with wet or frozen ground. I also don't need to finish on a deadline -- if I have a bad day I can quit early and have a beer (or 3) without getting fired. Does that make it more feasible for one guy, or just more likely that I will never finish?

fensoncont.,

Are scrapers the most efficient way to move dirt 100-1000' if the conditions are right? How is the trade-off of equipment cost for yards of dirt moved compared to a dozer? How is the trade-off in operator seat time and fuel consumption also?

In calculating yards moved for overall $, isn't bigger usually better. Am I more likely to get stuck using a bigger scraper if I have some sub-soil moisture, or does the extra hp make better traction for the bigger machines?

Do you scrape in slots and then scrape the windrows? How far do you try to drive to pick up your 11 yards (or whatever capacity)? Do your passes have to be straight, or can you pull a gentle curve?

special tool,

Yes, I am kind of leaning toward a loader. It seems like I could make a lot of rookie mistakes, but still eventually get all of the dirt where I want it. With the bigger loader I assume I could move more dirt per rental $, but would I also move more dirt per gallon of fuel? Don't the 977 or 973 require an over-size load permit to transport? Is the permit $100 or $1,000, or does it vary too much by state?

stumpjumper,

Unfortunately, I am a city boy. I actually have another piece of property out of town in the other direction. I have a good guy that bales the hay. I have a good tenant for the wheat. All of that looks like fun (in very small doses), but all of the equipment is so specialized and so darn expensive.

I have four small children and they would play indoors or on the computer all weekend if I didn't drag them out to the country. The plan is to kind of nibble away at the edges of my productive land with a nice pond for fishing and swimming, some food plots for even better hunting, and some landscaping (to keep the boss-lady happy). If I did get one piece of heavy equipment, then I could probably get by with a small estate tractor (35 hp or less) for the rest of my needs. These are pretty cheap around here. Any recommendations on make and model from your end? How about gotta-have attachments?

Fishin'Rod · 01-11-2009, 06:37 PM

Deas Plant,

Thanks for the lengthy response. I don't think I've lost all of my common sense yet. However, everyone I know that doesn't have a lick of common sense thinks they have tons of it.

I don't really trust myself to outright buy any heavy iron, so I think I should probably go the rental route. With the huge amount of time this project will require, I think I could start with a scraper and later finish with a loader or dozer if the transportation costs to site are not too high. Any feedback on the "rent one-at-a-time then move to the next piece of heavy iron" plan would be appreciated.

Do you work the loader like a dozer doing slots cutting from front to back? Or do you leave gentle ramps for good driving to your spoils area and cut a bucket full at the back, then lift and drive? I don't need the rippers to break any rocks, but it sure seems like less wear on your loader to rip the soil while driving a load, then load your bucket with disturbed soil on your next pass.

Does a loader do less work than a dozer because of less break-out/cutting force on the blade, or is it because you can only fill your 3.5 cu. yard bucket on a loader whereas, the wider blade on a dozer becomes a 6 yard bucket when pushing in a slot?

There are no slopes on my land steep enough to tip a wheel loader. I don't have any rocks to cut the tires. Any brush clearing I do will be very minor compared to what you guys consider clearing. Would a wheel loader be a better option for a newbie if I buy my last piece of rental equipment?

I have seen on other threads that you really like the 4-in-1 buckets on loaders for us poor suckers that try to get by on only one piece of heavy iron. Is the GP bucket better suited for a loader in my first application trying to use it like a dozer, and the 4-in-1 better suited for multi-purpose tasks? Or is the 4-in-1 just as good for "dozing dirt"?

milling drum,

I agree, baby steps would probably be better, but this project is just too big in size for that equipment. However, except for coring my low dam to prevent leaks, I believe all of my project is technically simple. I don't need any perfect grades, if the dam washes out during a big storm there won't be anyone harmed downstream, etc.

From reading this forum it is clear to me that there is clearly an art to using each piece of heavy equipment properly and efficiently. I have seen plenty of guys mention that they were an experienced dozer operator, yet still sucked on the grader. They knew they were doing it wrong, but still had a tough time doing it the right way. I usually only have to make a mistake one time to learn my lesson from it. However, I think I could make plenty of mistakes, but not learn from them because I don't realize that it is a mistake.

My question for the forum is: Rookies usually learn by watching an experienced operator do it the right way, then have the boss yell at them when they do it the wrong way. Do you guys think a newbie with (some?) common sense can learn power and controls through experience only, without an "old hand" showing him the proper way? You guys can tell me the right way over the internet, but that is a long way from me seeing it in person. It is also a long way from someone experienced seeing in person what I am doing wrong.

I haven't seen any mention on the forum of guys going to visit more experienced forum "friends" to learn things first hand. Is this a liability issue? Is it an internet anonymity issue, or have I just missed such a discussion?

Finally, a forum "good manners" question. I can keep pestering all you experts for answers for as long as you are willing to reply. Is it more polite to make lots of posts with only one or two questions, than my long rambling posts? Can you ask too many questions, am I "yelling" in your forum?

Thanks for all of your help.

special tool · 01-11-2009, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fishin'Rod

special tool,

Yes, I am kind of leaning toward a loader. It seems like I could make a lot of rookie mistakes, but still eventually get all of the dirt where I want it. With the bigger loader I assume I could move more dirt per rental $, but would I also move more dirt per gallon of fuel? Don't the 977 or 973 require an over-size load permit to transport? Is the permit $100 or $1,000, or does it vary too much by state?

This will NOT be a considerable expense for a one-time move on a job of the scale of which you have outlined.

Try to minimize the amount of state permits required - the closer the better.

When you specify size class, the newer machine will always be more efficient - a 973 will ALWAYS be more efficient than a 977. Caterpillar is not a market leader because they go backwards....***
HOWEVER..I like 977's, they might be a little cheaper upon initial purchase, and the engine lies where God intended.

A dozer or a scraper might be faster (probable), but they are both more difficult to run efficiently - you ought to honestly have more experience.

fensoncont. · 01-11-2009, 06:55 PM

fensoncont.,

Are scrapers the most efficient way to move dirt 100-1000' if the conditions are right?

Scrapers are very efficient up to 3000' one way haul, generally pull pans aren't used for more then 1000' one way. If you were down around 100' one way I see no problem using a dozer, you could even use a dozer above that distance as well.

How is the trade-off of equipment cost for yards of dirt moved compared to a dozer?

This depends on what the exact haul length is and what size of each machine. If you have an idea on each size of machine and a distance I could give you better assistance on that.
How is the trade-off in operator seat time and fuel consumption also?

What exactly are you asking when you say operator seat time when comparing them? Fuel consumption depends on size of each machine, give me an example and I can give you a good idea on consumption per machine per hour.

In calculating yards moved for overall $, isn't bigger usually better.

You want to move the most yards per hour you can if that's what you're asking? Although depending on the size of the job you don't want a bunch of equipment or large equipment just to get it done if there is no strict time restraint. Another thing: This won't affect you on this job much, but there are always fixed costs like mobilization that will cause a lower quantity of an item to cost more.
Am I more likely to get stuck using a bigger scraper if I have some sub-soil moisture, or does the extra hp make better traction for the bigger machines?

Not sure I am understanding that question thoroughly?

Do you scrape in slots and then scrape the windrows?

When I have operated a self loading scraper I was working on a street, I could cut in 2 different widths (slots like you are talking about) and then I would scrape the windrow in the center up.
How far do you try to drive to pick up your 11 yards (or whatever capacity)?

This will depend on the depth of the cut you are making at the given time. Say you are making a 6" cut with a 613 Cat Scraper (11 yards) it will take you roughly 50-60' length to fill your bowl. That is assuming natural clay with a load factor of .75 figuring the capacity by weight/struck capacity.
Do your passes have to be straight, or can you pull a gentle curve?

I normally tried to cut straight when I was operating, but at the end of ths street it made 90* right turn and I had to cut while turning. I had to adjust my bowl and try to keep subgrade for the street pavement beacuse when you turn while cutting like that it can be confusing. Take your time.

I hope some of this information helps, if I can help with anything else let me know. I'm sure the experts can help you a lot more who have a lot of operating experience. I'm just a kid.

30 dirty years · 01-11-2009, 07:20 PM

Of time isn't an issue ,I always wanted to dig a pond with one of these :-)

Construct'O · 01-11-2009, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fishin'Rod

I love the forum and have been lurking for quite a while.

I would like to build a 5 acre pond to an average depth of eight feet. Location is in loam soil in central Kansas with no rocks.

I can construct an embankment dam for only about two feet of pond depth before I impound water onto the neighbor's property. I would then have to dig about six feet (net) over 5 acres. By my math, this is moving 48,400 yards of material. The property is 160 acres, so I could grade the spoils immediately adjacent to the pond and level out the gentle valley.

This project leads me to many questions for you experts.

First, if I can only afford one piece of equipment, what would be the best piece for the job? I have been reading the track loader forum, and this would probably be the most versatile piece of equipment for me to have around the farm. However, can it do this much true digging, or do I need to decide between a dozer or an excavator?

Secondly, and more importantly, can a newbie be trusted to run heavy equipment? This is nearly flat ground and I would not have to clear any trees. I am a geologist and about 1/2 of a petroleum engineer. I have pretty good book smarts and decent street smarts, but I have never been around anyone operating heavy equipment. I am a diligent person, if the manual says to change the oil filter at 100 hours, I guarantee that it will be changed on schedule. It is all of the stuff that isn't in the manual that concerns me. Phrase your answers for a guy that right now doesn't know which foot pedal does what.

In my experience, the best way to learn is by doing. However, if the job took me five times as long as a contractor, then I would probably be better off paying to have the job done. I have several larger projects that I could tackle if the first project goes well, so I would like to be able to do it by myself.

There are several dealers in the area that rent dozers, loaders (track or wheel), and excavators by the week or month. I would not trust myself to buy a piece of heavy equipment, because I just could not evaluate its condition. However, if I rented something that ran well for four weeks, would I then be able to make a smart purchase decision? Can a decent mechanic evaluate equipment to some certainty, or is too much of the wear and tear hidden in the engine, tracks, etc?

Is this project feasible for a total newbie? There is no time constraint on completing the project, and I would be able to ask questions on this forum to get my learning curve going a little steeper.

Any advice about equipment, operating, and best earthmoving practices would be greatly appreciated.

P.S. I don't have thin skin, please be completely blunt in your responses rather than beat around the bush.

On a real serious note here do you really realize what you want????

First off using your figure of 48,400 yards of dirt !!!!! Do you even have any idea how much dirt that is? Plus another thing is get the local NRCS people to come out and see how big 5 acres is. Measure off a 5 acre pond and set the water line stakes then you will get a little more idea what your getting into.

There is coreout for the center of the dam and has to be refilled back in with good clay.Dirt moved out and dirt moved back in (more yardage).

I would talk to the neighbor if you get along and try to get them to sign an easement to back water up on them and raise the dam to get your depth to what you want.Faster and less dirt to excavate.

If you only have 2 ft. high in the dam to work with where is the water going to drain too while your taking your time diggin out the other 6 ft. of dirt.If it rains before your done then the hole your diggin is filling up with water before you get it don't.

So you would have to have a ditch(8 ft. deep) that will drain out while your taking your merry time digging out 5 acre 6 ft. deep (48,400 yards of dirt).

Main point is that this isn't a one machine and take all the time you want to build thing if it won't drain while your digging the 6 ft.deep part.

My neighbor here did what you want to do.Bought a dozer ,then got into trouble,got stuck first off.Then tipped the dozer over on it's side,then.Part of it filled up with water before he got done.

In the mean he finally got someone to come up with a TS14 scraper and 225 excavator.Which took close to two years and 2 months to complete and still has problems because of building the slopes to steep and not enough dirt to flatten out the back slope and running out of dirt and now with the pond over 3/4 full,still needing dirt for the back slope.

I would lower my site to smaller pond with a better location suited for building.Like deep ditch so you can leave the middle open and get the ends built up to the high you need or want that way any water coming into the pond will drain out the center until you get ready to fill the center and complete your job.

Not one machine ,but close.Would be dozer and scraper(hydraulic scraper preferably) since you have very little experience with a cable operatered scraper.Plus you could rent tractor to pull the scraper when you need to run the dozer serpate from scraper.Like when you went to fill the middle .You could be dozing while some one else was running the tractor and scraper.

When fill the center is not time to dally around if rain is forcast.Even when they aren't forcasting ,sometimes those duck drowners happing when you least expect them!

Ever played in mud? not fun aleast at our age!

First thing i would check with your local NRCS(natural resource conservation service) in your county.They can survey the site and tell you what you need to do and maybe find a better place on the 160 acres.Surly more places then just the one your looking at to me.Which doesn't sound very good too me.

You might even be able to get goverment cost share if it in an erosion area.

For 5 acre pond you will need also a drainage pipe,just a plain spillway won't work.You will have a gully around the end where the spillway is in a few years.

This is coming from someone that has built ponds and done conservation work for 34 years.You just need to really know what your getting yourself into.5K to 6k pond not a bad project for a newbie,but not 48,400 yard of dirt one.Good luck what every you decide

stumpjumper83 · 01-11-2009, 07:57 PM

48,400 cu. yards equals the following

4,609 full loads with a 14 yard Terex ts-14

15,414 full buckets with with a 4 yard bucket on a cat 973 trackloader or a 950 wheel loader

10,590 pushes with a 6 yd blade on a cat D8t

That is alot of dirt to move.

*all calculations figgured a swell of .75

As far as estate tractors go, there are some real deals out there right now. I've seen some nearly new ( < 100 hrs. ) kubotas for half to 2/3's of new price.

bill onthehill · 01-11-2009, 08:49 PM

Having built a few and fixed even more ponds over the years I would suggest getting some estimates and some help in laying out and planning your pond. I have seen many ponds that were never built right from the bottom up to those that that became just too muddy to complete. not a good job for a new operator unless you are willing to live with what you build. with times as slow as they are right now you should have little trouble getting multiple bids. also give some thought to an island as these are great for swimming and fishing. If the soil is moist enough you will likely have to dig,pile to dry and shape as much as 6 months later. A 5 acre pond is most likely going to need several overflow and flood controls. where the water goes on exiting the pond is just as important as where it comes in. most washouts are the result of dumping water too close to the breast and over time it undermines it. just some things to ponder. Billhttp://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/Forum/images/smilies/smile.gif