Yeah buddy605,
I'm not going to pay for GPR on a $60k job. I should be able to borrow a Ditch Witch locator then eventually purchase my own since there are too many times when I could use one.Originally Posted by buddy605
Yeah buddy605,
I'm not going to pay for GPR on a $60k job. I should be able to borrow a Ditch Witch locator then eventually purchase my own since there are too many times when I could use one.
There are Ditch Witch locators being offered for sale on Ebay. Here is the owners description of one of them. ---- Ditch Witch Electronics Model #300 SR-ST very good condition. Comes as pictured with carry case and manual. Locator has been very well taken care of. Rides in cab of truck and taken in house at night. Owner operated by me, a utility contractor. Locates accurately and shoot depth within an inch or two.
Thanks Tinkerer,
I'll look into that right now.
Understood, just didnt want you to get stuck. Since you are the Electrical Contractor you know what you are dealing with and the dangers involved. Good luck with the project, those government jobs can be a pain.
Thanks for the reply buddy , I will look into that . Haddy
we used to use a large vacume borer for locating services, worked well but was quite high maintenance
,,,,,,,,, and buried bodies
Ground Penetrating Radar sounds like what I needBUT I have just found out the price of them
, approx $40k here . Maybe I don't need one after all
Hey SeaMac, Originally GPR (ground penetrating radar) was very expensive but in the past 5 years costs have dramatically come down. Here are some options available from actual manufacturers and not OEM based systems.
www.gprlocates.com LMX-100 (Lists for around $13,900.00) - This unit strictly "Locates and Marks" the targets. www.sensoft.ca Noggin 250 SmartCart (Lists for around $21,000.00) - Unit Locates and marks and also has the ability to map the targets; integrates the easiest with a GPS as well to georeference your locates. Highly advise that this be used with a traditional wand locator. GPR won't tell you what your looking at.
Since you are working in Palm Beach County (Airport I'm assuming); soil conditions there are ideal for GPR. Cheers, Greg Summers (Sales rep for Sensors & Software Inc - GPR Manufacturer Tele: 905-624-8909 Ext. 281 or Cell: 416-884-8119)
Hi GPRGuy,
Yes it is PBI or Palm Beach International, but I wasn't planning on spending anywhere near that much. I could either purchase or make a hefty down-payment on a new flats boat for that much. I do appreciate the input however.
Thanks for the quick reply SeaMac,
Depending on what your budget is, you could always rent (cost would be about $1617.00 - 7 days) $231.00 per day, not including the shipping (~$700 returned). Or check with Southeastern Surveyors in Orlando, they are selling some older units (5-10yrs old). I'm not too sure what the cost is but their number is 407-292-8580. Best of Luck! If you do need a Locator, they are good as well. Greg S.
For this project, it should only take 1.5 hours if that, we're only talking one 800' parallel conduit run between manholes. I have an eBay bid for a Ditch Witch model which won't break the bank and will be useful in the future. Thanks again...
SeaMac©
SeaMac,
Maybe. It does work better than you would believe, but for the application you were talking about, I hoped you wouldn't take it so seriously.
The Facility Manager should have a print showing all internal work done and if he does you can only trust it with a reliability factor of 50% or less for accuracy. If this is holding you up you've lost, what, A couple grand a day figuring it out. If this is an International Airport I would imagine the work needs to be done. You say it is an internal job but I don't know if you are refering to the original placement of the conduit or if you work for the airport and don't want to bid it out which if you have certified electricians for this voltage. If you want to get the job done there is no magic answer, just basically 1 right one and the fact you are even asking this question concerns me. "Ground Penetration Radar" is the answer if you do not like any of the tracers you have mentioned. 35K if handle inappropriately can jump up and bite you in the butt. You say you are dealing with internal wires ([/I]not installed by the Power Company[/I]) and it is work that sounds like after being located and excavated 'near' the located point, the rest includes a great deal of hand shoveling with dielectric tools and portable safety cage also dielectric and then there is all kinds of safety personal equipment needed as well.
The bottom line is if you work for the airport and they want you to work with this and you have no more eqipment than you have indicated, you have no business doing it. The Building and Grounds Manager needs to bid a job like this out, it's the only logical thing. If you are a contractor and only have the equipment indicated then It would be my advise to sublet it out. As for the airport not wanting too... this type of work can (In most States anyway) can only be done by certified electricians for High Voltage. If you are a contractor and don't have the equipment bid the job, 'TIME & MATERIAL only', if you get it then you can 'Purchase the truckload of tools and personal equipment needed and hire a Certified Industrial or Distrubution Electrician to over see the job and you may get it done. This is not a job that you should have to ask to many questions before you try doing it, or maybe it needs be done by a Certified Electrician in High Voltage. We lose enough people every year in the job of Operating Alone!
What ever you decide, the best of luck!
Invent_4U
Last edited by Invent_4U; 06-30-2012 at 11:41 AM.
Wow, a mouthful for sure,
Okay first, I am a State Unlimited Electrical Contractor, I can, do and have worked line voltages up to 35kv, myself and my employees are beyond qualified and certified to do any line work, barehand or gloved to 35kv. As for internal, that implies that it is within the scope of jurisdiction and authority of the airport, there is a permit which I have pulled, this project will be inspected by the County, Airport and TSA. As for equipment, I have thousands upon thousands of dollars in equipment, I do not have a locator because I generally don't need one and thought since this project would be easily accommodated with the equipment I currently own. I am in the process of purchasing a Ditch Witch locator which will work fine for this project and future ones. I actually find it somewhat offensive that you assume that I would put myself or crew at risk. I am on the Emergency Responders list of Florida Power & Light (FPL) and FEMA and have been on the list for 15 years and respond nationwide to restore power if needed. As for the Facility Manager, a man I have known for 20 years, he does have as-builts for the airport and with them we know of the general direction of the conduit run, we know where manhole 16 is and manhole 17 we need to know exactly where the conduit run is between these manholes so we can intercept the conduit, install another manhole and tap off the service for new security guard house. As for my contract with the airport, simple, I do all work under a certain dollar amount anything above is competitve bidding, it is the contract I have county wide. As far as dielectric tools, and caging, clearly you are not involved in high-voltage line work, we use non-conductive digging tools and FR rated clothing which is required by the NEC. As for being certified, in Florida, Georgia, Alabama, Mississipi, Louisiana, South Carolina, North Carolina, Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee, Ohio just to name a few, my license allows me to build ANYTHING to ANY voltage with the sole exception of a Nuclear Power Plant, which to be honest I have no desire to work on. So, I thank you for your concern but yeah, I think I've got this one.SeaMac,
The Facility Manager should have a print showing all internal work done and if he does you can only trust it with a reliability factor of 50% or less for accuracy. If this is holding you up you've lost, what, A couple grand a day figuring it out. If this is an International Airport I would imagine the work needs to be done. You say it is an internal job but I don't know if you are refering to the original placement of the conduit or if you work for the airport and don't want to bid it out which if you have certified electricians for this voltage. If you want to get the job done there is no magic answer
The bottom line is if you work for the airport and they want you to work with this and you have no more eqipment than you have indicated, you have no business doing it. The Building and Grounds Manager needs to bid a job like this out, it's the only logical thing. If you are a contractor and only have the equipment indicated then It would be my advise to sublet it out. As for the airport not wanting too... this type of work can (In most States anyway) can only be done by certified electricians for High Voltage. If you are a contractor and don't have the equipment bid the job, 'TIME & MATERIAL only', if you get it then you can 'Purchase the truckload of tools and personal equipment needed and hire a Certified Industrial or Distrubution Electrician to over see the job and you may get it done. This is not a job that you should have to ask to many questions before you try doing it, or maybe it needs be done by a Certified Electrician in High Voltage. We lose enough people every year in the job of Operating Alone!
What ever you decide, the best of luck!
Invent_4U
Last edited by SeaMac; 06-30-2012 at 09:17 PM.
SeaMac©
We were able to purchase our first and only locator a Schonstedt mac51bx....it is not the same device as the locator service folks have, it is not like the one the plumbers use to find the sonde attached to their camera, it is not like the one the electric utility folks have....but it has a wand with a magnetic locator and two frequencies for superimposing a signal. So it is called a combination unit I believe since it also does metal.
When I initially asked about which one to get, I did get some (free) stern counseling about "me messing around in areas (like self locating) that I had no business doing" but for so many times (back when the economy was good) we could locate underground phone lines, electrical cables in conduits and direct bury, and the magnetic feature was great for say re-finding some of our own work when we needed to temporarily cover it up for an access way, then go back and find the piece of flat metal and extend the sweep to grade or pull box etc etc.
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I was looking on here recently to see if there was more definitive information on other models,and I found a lot of advice on if a firm should or should not be doing this stuff. Luckily for the cautious ones, since the economy is dead we don't do it or much of anything else for that matter, and therefore we are safe from ourselves....but in respect to their advice, sometimes you get a job for a customer that expects it to be done and that damaged utility just makes everyone sour. Maybe I should somehow change my arrangements and I think there is a lot of merit to that.
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On another note, I messed up the tool two years ago because I put the batteries in backwards (inside work in dark warehouse) and the electrical part was smokin and stinking....even with the dead economy, I miss having it so I am sending it in to see if it can be repaired. The metal detector still functioned as it is built into the wand.
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At the next Con Expo, I will make a point of looking into these devices and their costs etc because having this tooling while we dig through all of our iterations and steps 'sneaking up on the utility' and potholing it etc etc just makes us less likely to damage something.
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I wish I had more experience to help you on other models but this is our only. The tool does a great job and I know one could find water pipes and sewer lines if they had a tracer wire or maybe one could be fished....but frankly the repair for a phone cable or an electrical wire is so much more difficult than patching a sewer or a water pressure line IMO.
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