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Thread: Cat HEUI pump failure

  1. #1
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    Cat HEUI pump failure

    I'm a long time Cat owner with 10 machines. I have recently had 2 Cat HEUI pump failures, and was wondering how widespread this problem is. Cat 324D failed at 4000hrs, and D6R series 3 at 4800 and again at 6800hrs, forcing pump and injector replacement.
    According to the dealer, Cat have been attempting to fix the problem by upgrading the bearings in the pump, but the upgraded pump on D6 only lasted 2000hrs, so they still don't have it right?
    Apparently, the bearing starts failing, shedding metal into the oil and then into the injectors.
    They talk about the need for the highest grade engine oil, and engine warm up procedure, but it would appear these pumps are causing widespread issues.
    Has anyone else got similar history? If so, why don't Cat own the problem and help their customerss out, till they can sort it. In my case, if it's out of warranty, I pay the bill.
    Gotta admit, I expected better of Cat than that.

  2. #2
    Senior Member rare ss's Avatar
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    we never had one fail before, ran good oil and serviced/sampled every 250hrs.. i might be old school but i'm not keen on 500hr oil change invervals at the end of the day oil and a filter are cheap IMO

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    Senior Member Nige's Avatar
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    On the 3400-series of engines (going back to around the mid-90's time frame) the HEUI pump was a total pain. These days they are a bit different. Of our equipment which was mostly new in the 2008/9 time frame we have had one HEUI pump failure early doors on a 336D, covered under warranty IIRC, but that's been it to date.

    I don't give a flying f**k what the manuals (or the "500-hour oil change" sales pitch) say, on a HEUI engine I'm going to change the oil & filter every 250 hours - or less if SOS tells me to. We have to be very careful where I am now because our diesel fuel is very high in sulphur and affects oil condition greatly.

    Still not a fan though.....
    I'd love to see things from your perspective but unfortunately I find it impossible to get my head that far up my a$$.

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    We have serviced all machines at 250hrs, with approved oil, and sampled at 500hrs without any issues. 500hr servicing was an option for us, but like you guys, I figure oil is cheap... We have a 336d, with the same C9 as in the D6R, no problems yet. Fingers crossed.

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    Senior Member rare ss's Avatar
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    the new pump which failed, was it new-new or reman-new?

    We had afew issues with reman components over the years at the time we went back to rebuilding them ourselves

  6. #6
    Senior Member Nige's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rare ss View Post
    the new pump which failed, was it new-new or reman-new?
    Good point

    Quote Originally Posted by rare ss View Post
    We had afew issues with reman components over the years at the time we went back to rebuilding them ourselves
    Only "a few" ............???? We've had loads. I think Cat have slowly come to the realization that there are certain things that just don't Reman very well.
    I'd love to see things from your perspective but unfortunately I find it impossible to get my head that far up my a$$.

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    Senior Member Dozerboy's Avatar
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    I'm surprised your having such issues and your doing 250hr services most of the issues I know of are from guys stretching out the servicing. Maybe just bad luck. HEUI pumps are idiotic on diesels.

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    Pump and injectors are reman. Parts alone were almost US$12,000. No way could I have afforded new!

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    Senior Member Gavin84w's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rare ss View Post
    we never had one fail before, ran good oil and serviced/sampled every 250hrs.. i might be old school but i'm not keen on 500hr oil change invervals at the end of the day oil and a filter are cheap IMO
    1000% correct, 500HR oil change is not for the everyday operator, to do it successfully takes a fleet of people in the background looking at all manner of things and devising strategy to be in front of any issue that crops up.

  10. #10
    Senior Member rare ss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nige View Post
    Good point

    Only "a few" ............???? We've had loads. I think Cat have slowly come to the realization that there are certain things that just don't Reman very well.
    I was being nice, pretty much half of all reman units failed pretty quickly, worst one (which was one picked up by chance) was a D9L oil pump, we did a bearing roll, oil pump, pump/injectors & turbo while we resealed the sump, anywho the engine started breathing pretty bad with the new found puff and after around 1000hrs we ended up putting a set of liners in, found the oil pump had broken the case bolts from being over tightened during assembly, we also had a reman rotary coupling fail on an old 235C locking up causing the steel slew piping to be turned into a bowl of spagetti dumping "19L" (otherwise known as the Hyd oil capacity) on the ground

  11. #11
    Senior Member Nige's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by log frog View Post
    Pump and injectors are reman. Parts alone were almost US$12,000. No way could I have afforded new!
    Unless things have changed recently your "Reman" injectors are probably new ones. Of course with the number of irrepairable units that go back as cores the Reman system always contains a % of new parts just to keep the numbers up. But IIRC Cat was having so much trouble reman-ing HEUI injectors to an acceptable price & quality that they gave up an just supplied new injectors in an 0R box.
    I'd love to see things from your perspective but unfortunately I find it impossible to get my head that far up my a$$.

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    Quote Originally Posted by log frog View Post
    Pump and injectors are reman. Parts alone were almost US$12,000. No way could I have afforded new!
    If you can't afford NEW there is no way in the world you can afford REMAN. If you get 3000 hours out of REMAN HEUI Fuel Components then you are the LUCKY one. As Nigel said 30 to 50% of REMAN is NEW.....pull the squirters out of the paper and look at the Solenoids:- if they are Honey colored they are true REMAN but if they are white they are NEW.

    On the 500 hour drops:- think of the scenario of Soot loaded oil in there twice as long and the tolerances of a variable displacement piston pump and Fuel injectors. As HEUI get longer in the tooth pop the tapper cover and watch the squirters when you crank- the leakage from the tell tale holes is amazing. The confirmation of that is watching it start with ET and what the IAPCV is doing to stroke the pump up to Desired Actuation Pressure. imagine running a Hydraulic system on Dirty Engine oil AND THEN LEAVING IT IN THERE TWICE AS LONG..........??

  13. #13
    Senior Member Nige's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CAT793 View Post
    If you can't afford NEW there is no way in the world you can afford REMAN. If you get 3000 hours out of REMAN HEUI Fuel Components then you are the LUCKY one. As Nigel said 30 to 50% of REMAN is NEW.....pull the squirters out of the paper and look at the Solenoids:- if they are Honey colored they are true REMAN but if they are white they are NEW.

    On the 500 hour drops:- think of the scenario of Soot loaded oil in there twice as long and the tolerances of a variable displacement piston pump and Fuel injectors. As HEUI get longer in the tooth pop the tapper cover and watch the squirters when you crank- the leakage from the tell tale holes is amazing. The confirmation of that is watching it start with ET and what the IAPCV is doing to stroke the pump up to Desired Actuation Pressure. imagine running a Hydraulic system on Dirty Engine oil AND THEN LEAVING IT IN THERE TWICE AS LONG..........??
    That IMHO is the basic flaw of the HEUI system. All the Rules of Hydraulics are based around "keeping the oil clean", then in a HEUI you run the pump & injector hydraulics on dirty engine oil. WTF ....???

    I'd suggest that you pay your dealer a visit and ask them to put in a Goodwill/Policy Claim on your behalf for the failed pumps & injectors which I assume occured outside normal machine warranty otherwise you wouldn't be posting here. Tell them you believe you have not "received fair value for the money you have paid" in respect of both machines for the OEM HEUI pumps & injectors, plus the replacements fitted to the D6R @ 4800 hours that failed again @ 6800. Be prepared to back up your story with your machine maintenance records showing timely oil & filter changes, the manufacturer's technical data sheet of the engine oil you use, plus your oil analysis records right back to Day 1 for both machines. Also be prepared to show the dealer that any time there were reports from SOS that where either in the "Monitor Compartment" or "Action Required" categories for either engine then something was actually done about it and not just file the oil analysis report in the machine history file. Wouldn't hurt to have details of the coolant analysis for both machines plus the downloads from the machine electronic controls (engine, transmission, implements) using ET to show the dealer that in general the machines have been operated within acceptable parameters.

    As one of my old bosses once told me - "If you have a $100 claim you need a $100 story. If you have a $100,000 dollar claim you need a $100,000 story".
    I'd love to see things from your perspective but unfortunately I find it impossible to get my head that far up my a$$.

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    Good advice guys, thanks. A bit of background on this machine: Imported from the States by another brand dealer at 6k hrs, inspected by Cat workshop on my behalf. Advised that all was well apart from an intermittant misfire at start up on No.1 cylinder, and that the HEUI pump had been replaced at 4800 hrs according to Cat records. All injectors replaced by Cat, paid for by other brand dealer, problem solved, we take deliveryand put to work. HEUI fails at 6800 hrs. Talked with Cat, "you didn't buy the machine from us", etc etc. They have reduced the price of parts by approx. 30%. I suppose that's something.
    We are now upgrading our oil to the highest standard available here. No more reman HEUIs for us!

  15. #15
    Senior Member Nige's Avatar
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    That takes care of the D6R, as usual things are never as clear-cut as they appear when someone first posts asking for help. Not trying to be a smart-arse but in order to get informed comment you need to give the whole story up front.

    So what's the story about the 324D .....??
    I'd love to see things from your perspective but unfortunately I find it impossible to get my head that far up my a$$.

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