580SE trys to go forward

[alrman]

The other thing that was odd was when it was cold before the stall test it did not have neutral just forward and reverse after the stall test neutral worked fine.

Does that mean that when the shuttle was in neutral position, the machine was trying to drive forward? If so, the fwd clutch pack is toasted.......

The difference in stall speeds at fwd & rev shows slippage in fwd.
About the control valve, what do you mean by "detent not positive"? Was the valve rotating fwd & rev easily or did it feel tight?

[jimr]

Yes when it was first started (shuttle in neutral) it wanted to go forward so I shut it off and moved the tranny to neutral. As the floor is still out I could watch the drive shaft and halfway between the neutral position and the reverse position (trans in neutral) the shaft would start turning reverse direction. After the stall test neutral worked normally, with the shuttle in neutral gears could be selected.

The control valve can be turned easily by hand with the linkage disconected, the detents can be felt but they don't hold the vale firmly in place there is porbably an inch of rotation before any resistance is felt.

[alrman]

Here's a pic of a fwd clutch pack with a broken bellville spring & resulting damage to the plates.
The spring breaks & the boken pieces jam up the pack - locking it into drive.

The oil pan should show something to prove theory.

[jimr]

alrman, thanks for the pics. I'm going out to drain the shuttle and pull the pan shortly. I'm thinking about pulling the shuttle too as it doe not seem that this can be fixed with it in place. What do you think? Jim

[alrman]

See what you find first - & yes, it has to come out to fix it.

[jimr]

Well, I drained the fluid and it was black and smelled like burned clutch. There is a little black slime on the screen and on the bottom of the pan but no pieces of anything. When the problem first happened I had checked the fluid and it was still clear. There can only be an hour or so on it since then. I guess when it goes it goes fast. Anyway I pulled the shuttle and have it on the bench. I was going to start cleaning things up and the pump in the parts washer froze up. guess that has to fixed before I find out what is inside the shuttle.

Will it hurt the torque converter to run the motor a little? The reason I'm asking is because, of course, I already did and there was slight metalic clanging coming from the T/C that was never there before.

Maybe tomarrow afternoon I'll get back at this. I'm sure I'll need help with the rebuild.
Thanks Jim.

[jimr]

So this would be the problem. The seal in the forward clutch piston is laying down on the job letting fluid to leak past so there was not enough pressure to fully engage the forward clutch.

Attachment 91458

looks like a mouse got in here, this is the seal for the clutch piston not a great photo but you can see that there is chunks missing nearly all the way around it.

Attachment 91460

this is one of discs from the clutch pack

Attachment 91456

and again[ATTACH=CONFIG]91459[/ATTACH


I would like to hear from anybody that has a opinion about aftermarket vs OEM parts. Thanks for all of the help so far. Jim

[jimr]

I'm learning how to post pictures from Packrat

Here is some other concerns:



The notch that the detent cam engages the control valve has some wear and the coresponding tab on the detent cam does also so there is some play between the two. There is also wear on the detents themselves but this item is cheap so I will replace it. I don't know if I need to replace the valve body itself.

There is also wear on the other end of the vale body where the shift lever seats.



Also on the case where the shift lever stops



I need some help with these problems as I don't know how bad this wear is and if it will cause trouble..... alrman are you out there?

[alrman]

Hey jimr, There seems to be a problem with the pics of piston seal & plate........
Re the valve - can't clearly see how bad the wear is, but it seems to have done quite alot of work.
Re the housing wear - I usually build that up by welding with a 2.5mm GP welding rod ( not too many amps) Then squaring up the stops using a brand new grinding disc. You could use stainless or nickel rods as well - over the years I found GP to do the trick as it is only being used as a fill, no real strength required. Sometimes the flats on the lever need a little attention too. Cover the bore with some tape to stop any spatter getting down there.

I have mostly used the aftermarket parts for these, because they are so common, the aftermarket parts seem pretty good - there is usually a big price difference too , espeacially on bigger items like pumps, valves & planetaries.

[jimr]

alrman, I'll try again



this is the piston



a better veiw of the clutch disc



the seal



and the rest of the clutch pack



You say to build the case back up with stainless, it must be cast iron. Is there any reason that a wire feed welder would not work for this?

I'm sorry about the pictures of the valve body but that is the best I can do. Is that iron as well?

Thanks very much for sharing your knowledge and experience. Jim

[alrman]

I must say jimr, I have seen alot of these, but never one that had a plate or seal look like that!

Alot of heat been generated to cause that. Was the belville spring broken?
What does the pump look like?

There's no reason you can't use a wire feed to weld the housing - really depends on your ability. The valve is mild steel - it could be welded to repair the wear at the tang - I've never done so, but I would not recommend doing anything to the other threaded end.

[jimr]

alrman, there are quite a few blued discs in clutch pack but that one is a beauty isn't it?

The belville spring has some minor gaulding near the inside. It actually looks good enough to reuse but so many others have had problems with them replacing it seems the best idea.

The pump and for that matter everything else looks perfect. Please let me know if there are thing that sould be replaced just because the time is ripe.

The wear on the valve body is very hard to see in my lousy pictures but if you look at the left side of the flat where it meets the shaft you may be able notice a 1/4 inch shiny area. Might be better to try to make the shift lever fit the valve.

[alrman]

The belville spring is included in the rebuild kit - which is quite comprehensive.
It is a good idea to flush the cooler before refitting the shuttle. I just use a 20lt drum pump & by making some adaptors, pump some kero through the cooler followed by some clean oil.
Catch the fluid as it comes out in a clean container - & see what comes out.
Did you drain the convertor? Not alot of $$ to get it overhauled while the shuttle is out - will make the repair a little closer to 100%.

[jimr]

alrman, I was looking at broken tractor for aftermarket parts they have a couple of different levels for rebuild kits. The first is just seals, o-rings and gaskets, the next has bearings and clutch plates and the next level has the pump too. How happy do you think I should get here? They sell a reman convertor too. I don't know if there is anybody in this area that rebuilds them.

I did drain the convertor ....same black stinky fluid as the shuttle but still no grit, pieces or metal. Based on the stall test ( post #15) do you think it is weak?

[alrman]

Seal kit & plates must be fitted without question - Reverse plates rarely ever get fitted, but I see they are included. Bearings are also a no brainer. If you say the pump looks OK - I guess it's up to your purse strings really.
The convertor seemed to test OK according to your figures - they are hard to flush out. I would not reuse it without a good flush at least. I generally fit one every rebuild - but I have to if a customer wants warranty on a repair.