Received hyraulic oil analysis back. Looking for a guide of acceptable levels.

[caterpillarmech]

I am very impressed! you guy's really know your stuff. Thought I was back in my anual contamination control class! Great info for every one to have. The cleaner it is the longer it last. Take care of your money makers fellas.

[Nige]

Just to show how seriously the lubricant manufacturers/suppliers take the subject of Contamination Control, and freely admit that their new lubricants in bulk or in whatever type of drum you can think of are not as clean as we need to make machine components live a long healthy life, our lube supplier who has just been awarded a new contract for supply of fuel & lubricants is throwing a 6-figure US$ sum into our Maintenance budget to be spent specifically on Contamination Control machinery like kidney-loop machines, and filtration systems for our bulk oil tanks, etc.

My personal target is that I would like hydraulic oil coming out of the workshop PM bay lube lines at around ISO 13/10 & power train oils at ISO 14/11 or better.

[DMoline]

Reading this thread, Should I be looking for higher levels of Zinc and Phosphorous as higher levels of anti wear addittives? All else being acceptable in the trend analysis, would lower levels of P and ZN indicate my hydraulic oil is depleated? Thanks guys.

[stondad]

You will have to wait for a better answer than mine from one of the more learned men who we have learned so much from by reading their posts above.
But I think I can say that a reference to the "base line" of the oil when it was new, together with observance of the "trend" in your P and Zn figures will give some of the answer.

I would just like to add (even though it was briefly touched on by others) that it's important to realise the difference between the focus of an oil company's test results and an oil analysis company's test results.
The oil company is most interested in how their product is holding up, while the analysis company will tell you whats really going on. Mine even gives me a graph of trends and a quick overview.
On the other hand, when I wanted to extend my oil change period to 30,000Km I sent a sample to the oil manufacturer (Castrol) for their opinion and they were more interested in how much of their additive package was left.

[Nige]

You will have to wait for a better answer than mine from one of the more learned men who we have learned so much from by reading their posts above.
But I think I can say that a reference to the "base line" of the oil when it was new, together with observance of the "trend" in your P and Zn figures will give some of the answer.

Rearrange these words into a well known phrase or saying ...... head, nail, hit .........

Spot on. Start with the ppm of Zn, P, etc in a sample of new oil. That's your baseline, then trend it from there. Every oil is different to a certain degree. If you change oil brands you have to start again with a sample of oil from your new supplier. Never assume that just because one supplier says their oil is the equivalent of an oil from another supplier does NOT mean the oils are identical in additive package composition.

if you are talking about hydraulic or drive train oils personally I would put Silicon (dirt) and Particle Count (ISO Code) at the top of my list of things to trend before looking at the additive package. Dirt and the wear it generates are my enemy, therefore I want to keep a close eye on it. I also want to make sure that there are the absolute minimum levels of dirt in my new oils. Remember new oils are not guaranteed to be "clean" even though they may look it.

It's only when you get into the situation of wanting to extend the oil life in a compartment by a factor of say 4 or more (manufacturer's recommended 2000 hour change intervals to 8-10,000 hours maybe) that you need to get worried about additive package depletion. On my last job we took rear axle oil life from 2k to 10k and could have gone even more than that without compromising oil condition but we were pulling diffs & finals at 20k so we decided it wasn't worth taking the oil past 10k. Therefore 2 fills of oil took us from new to component overhaul.

I would just like to add (even though it was briefly touched on by others) that it's important to realise the difference between the focus of an oil company's test results and an oil analysis company's test results.
The oil company is most interested in how their product is holding up, while the analysis company will tell you whats really going on. Mine even gives me a graph of trends and a quick overview.
On the other hand, when I wanted to extend my oil change period to 30,000Km I sent a sample to the oil manufacturer (Castrol) for their opinion and they were more interested in how much of their additive package was left.

Again spot on.......... only a good oil analysis lab will give you the full story and interpret the raw numbers on the analysis report. That's what you pay them for.

[landis2expensiv]

Hi guys,

Quite interesting thread with valuable info. Reading it makes me think I should worry big time about the analysis I just had done, more specifically the count on copper which seem more than high if I understood all this correctly. The weird thing is that the Cat lab does not seem be worried and simply indicate to have the oil re-analysed at regular sampling interval

Here is a copy/paste of the results of my hydraulic system on excavator Hyundai 210LC-7. Any ideas/recommendations would be greatly appreciated before I decide to flush it all.

Altough the previous owner analysis says he changed the oil and filters, I suspect he did not.

SAMPLE LABEL NUM :
EXT WARR NUMBER :
46
1 COMP SERIAL NUM :
HYDRAULIC SYSTEM
HYUNDAI
210LC_HYUNDAI
FLUID BRAND/WEIGHT :
SHOP JOB NUM :
EXT WARR EXPIRE DATE :
COMPARTMENT MODEL :
COMP MANUFACTURER
SAMPLE TYPE: OIL
FLUID TYPE :


LAB CONTROL NUMBER SAMPLE DATE PROCESS DATE EQUIPMENT METER METER ON FLUID FLUID CHANGED MAKE UP FLUID MAKE UP FLUID UNITS FILTER CHANGED

**My sample**N050-42075-0087 3/13/12 4160 HR

PARTICLE COUNT IS HIGH FOR SMALL PARTICLES. COPPER RATE INCREASED. OTHER READINGS APPEAR TO BE NORMAL. INSPECT FILTERS FOR METAL OR OTHERS VISIBLES PARTICLES.
CONTINUE NORMALLY SCHEDULED SAMPLING
Monitor Compartment
3/15/12 No No

**Previous Owner sample***
N050-39210-0002 7/15/09 2354.02 HR 2354.02 HR
TRACE D'EAU DETECTEE. PEUT ETRE CAUSE PAR LA CONDENSATION. FORTE AUGMENTATION DU CUIVRE SEULEMENT PEUT INDIQUER UN LESSIVAGE DU SYSTEME DE REFROIDISSEMENT
ET NON UNE USURE ANORMALE DES COMPOSANT EN BRONZE/CUIVRE. LES AUTRES RESULTATS SEMBLENT NORMAUX. INSPECTEZ LES FILTRES POUR DEBRIS OU TOUTE PARTICULES
VISIBLES. REECHANTILLONNEZ DANS 500 HEURES.
Monitor Compartment
7/29/09 Yes Yes

Wear Metals (ppm)

Cu Fe Cr Al Pb Sn Si Na K B Mo Ni Ag Ti Mn Cd Ca Mg Zn P Ba
N050-42075-0087 361 15 1 5 1 0 9 0 2 1 1 0 0 0 0 1 1053 6 561 538 0
N050-39210-0002 343 15 0 2 1 0 9 5 2 2 1 0 1499 6 745 676


Oil Condition /
Particle Count (ct/ml)

ST OXI NIT SUL W A V40 ISO 4μ 6μ 14μ 21μ 38μ 50μ 70μ
N050-42075-0087 0 14 4 23 N N 42.1 23/19/13 46296 2523 49 25 10 5 2
N050-39210-0002 0 16 4 25 T N 43.5


Ag = Silver, Al = Aluminum, B = Boron, Ca = Calcium, Cr = Chromium, Cu = Copper, Fe = Iron, P = Phosphorus, K = Potassium, Mg = Magnesium, Mo = Molybdenum, Na = Sodium, Ni = Nickel, Pb = Lead, Si = Silicon, Sn = Tin,
V = Vanadium, Zn = Zinc, A = Antifreeze, F = Fuel, W = Water, P = Positive, N = Negative, T = Trace, E = Excessive, NIT = Nitration, OXI = Oxidation, ST = Soot, SUL = Sulfation, ISO = ISO Rating, PFC = Percent Fuel Content,
PQI = Particle Quantifying index , NaW = Salt Water, FL Pt = Flash Point, TAN = Total Acid Number, TBN = Total Base Number, H2O = Karl Fisher result, V100 = Viscosity@100C, V40 = Viscosity@40C
Notice: This analysis is intended as an aid in predicting mechanical wear. No

[landis2expensiv]

Hmm It's not coming out the way it should... here it is, manually done

First number is my recent analysis the 2nd one is the previous owner analysis.

Wear metals(ppm)

Cu: 361 - 343
Fe: 15 - 15
Cr: 1 - 0
Al: 5 - 2
Pb: 1 - 1
Sn: 0 - 0
Si: 9 - 9
Na: 0 - 5
K: 2 - 2
B: 1 - 2
Mo: 1 - 1
Ni: 0 - 0
Ag: 0
Ti: 0
Mn: 0
Cd: 1
Ca: 1053 - 1499
Mg: 6 - 6
Zn: 561 - 745
P: 538 - 676
Ba: 0

Oil condition particle count

ST: 0 - 0
OXI: 14 - 16
NIT: 4 - 4
SUL: 23 -25
W: N - T
A: N - N
V40: 42.1 - 43.5
ISO: 23/19/13
4µ: 46296
6µ: 2523
14µ: 49
21µ: 25
38µ: 10
50µ: 5
70µ: 2

[Nige]

I take it this is a Hyundai excavator hydraulic system, correct..?

Oil brand & type..?
How many operating hours on the oil since it was last changed when you pulled you sample for analysis..?
How many operating hours on the oil at the time it was last analyzed by the previous owner..?
Were the filters changed at the time the last sample (or the previous one) was taken..?

I fail to see why they comment on Particle Count. The target for a hydraulic system is 18/15. Your is currently 19/13, however the 19 on your analysis is only just over the limit from being ISO 18 (2500 particles). So I would not worry about that too much.
Particles are not silicon (dirt) so what is they..? Non-metallic particles probably. None of the other metals are significantly up over the previous sample analysis either.

Maybe it might be worth putting a kidney loop machine with a really fine filter (2-micron or less) on the hydraulic tank and see if you can get the Particle Count of the 6-micron particles down a bit. Maybe run the dialysis machine for an hour and then start the machine up and cycle the cylinders a couple of times, also run the travel motors and the swing function. Then put the dialysis machine back on the tank for another hour or so.

If you change the oil for new first of all you will not get all the old oil out and second neither can you guarantee the new oil will be "clean" regarding Particle Count.

The high copper could just be a function of the Hitachi hydraulic system but I have no experience on this particular model therefore I can't say for certain whether it is or not.
What type of coolant or anti-freeze are you using..? The sodium has jumped from 0 to 5 and this could be a sign of coolant in the oil if you are using conventional anti-freeze. Coolant in the oil will give you high copper due to leaching of the cooler core if it has copper tubes. However your sample tested negative for water, all that means it that it was less than the lab's detection level, not necessarily that there was no water at all in the sample.

[landis2expensiv]

Hi Nige,

Yes, Hyundai Hydraulic system. I can't tell the oil brand and type that was in there, I have no history on the machine since I bought it at an auction. The funny thing is that it's a coincidence that the Cat lab I sent it to had a previous analysis on file for that serial # so I'm just lucky to find that bit of history.

If the info from previous owner is correct - which really I have no ways to find out - the oil from my sample should have just under 2000 hrs of operation and his sample would have been done at about 2354 hrs. His analysis says he changed the oil and filters at the time of taking the sample, but can't confirm.

Again for the coolant I can't say what type it is but you got those numbers reversed, his analysis was 5 on sodium and mine is 0 and the comments in French from his analysis says that the high copper could be due to a flush of the coolant system.

You're absolutely right about changing the oil will not guarantee anything so what I think I'll do is just take another sample in about 250hrs and see if copper keeps going up abnormally.

Thanks for your reply

[Nige]

Apologies I got the Sodium mixed up. It's gone down not up. I agree with you that there seems nothing really to worry about.

If you're not sure about filter change history then throw a replacement filter or filters in it just to be on the safe side, although TBH the Particle Count at the 4-micron level is unlikely to be affected by changing the filter because even hydraulic filter usually do not filter down to that level.
When you pul the old filters cut them open carefully and check for any chunky metal particles trapped in the filter media.

[byoung]

Do you use a sampling valve, or just go in through the plug when you take your samples. It would seem that since contamination is such a large concern, going through just the plug could add more containment into the system.

[Nige]

As a policy live sampling via a sample valve is always the preferred method of sampling. A suction pump is 2nd best.
NEVER EVER pull a sample from the drain plug while you're draining the oil.