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Thread: Digging a pond???

  1. #16
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    Yair...a question for Greg up thread with scoops (pans) behind the Sevens or Eights...on a job like that how would you blokes rip?

    Thanks.

  2. #17
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    I just did about the same job this week. Will be complete by noon tommorow. I have 28 hours in it using a D39 Komatsu. There was a little rock involved that slowed the process. I told the owner 3600$ , he was happy and from what I am seeing I will be getting little over 100$ an hour for that tractor. I run it for 85$ but like you the guy wanted a firm price. So both parties are happy in the end. Actually should be about 112.50 per hour. I feel you can do the same with that 5G. The only thing about the hoe is less compaction . Every pass with the dozer will give you a bit of compaction or take the hoe and wipe it down real well. We have heavy clay as in push the blade down raise up the front of the tractor to get a cut started. Then take about 6" a pass. I'll photo my job tommorow. My job is round does yours have to be square?

  3. #18
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    Yair...what can I say? Most dozer operators THINK they know how to push dirt but in fifty years of watching I have seen very few that can. This interesting thread illustrates that point very clearly...clients are paying dearly for lack of expertise.

    Not to pick on Dickjr (because most blokes are the same) but you cannot move dirt efficiently by jacking up the nose and taking a six inch cut. Good on him for making money on the job...and it illustrates how out of touch some of the other commentors were on pricing, but he would have done even better with a bit of proper training as to how to make his tractor more effective.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrub Puller View Post
    Yair...what can I say? Most dozer operators THINK they know how to push dirt but in fifty years of watching I have seen very few that can. This interesting thread illustrates that point very clearly...clients are paying dearly for lack of expertise.

    Not to pick on Dickjr (because most blokes are the same) but you cannot move dirt efficiently by jacking up the nose and taking a six inch cut. Good on him for making money on the job...and it illustrates how out of touch some of the other commentors were on pricing, but he would have done even better with a bit of proper training as to how to make his tractor more effective.
    Bit sweeping there, Scrub Puller. I've seen more dozer operators that can operate than can't, and some of the indifferent ones have got better with time, usually when they've worked alongside better operators. If the nose is jacked up the machine isn't heavy enough to penetrate and no operator can get over that. Mind you after 50 years watching you don't need a pup with only 34 years experience to point that out.

  5. #20
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    NRCS may estimate it at $1.40 but that does not make it correct. It also means that they will cost share a $1.40 a yard and owner has to pay the rest.

    As far as scrubpuller goes, I drop the blades and hook up the pans when ever I can. I can't push 18 yards with a blade on a D8 any way you cut it or 11 yards with a D7. You push with a Komatsu 65 all day and I will cut and haul with D8 and pan and lets see who's got the biggest pile the end of the day.

  6. #21
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    Scrubpuller,

    Assuming it is clay won't need to rip it. Cut it with the pan. If going gets really tough will put a D7 push Cat in the mix. If it gets worse than that drop the ripper in the ground.

  7. #22
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    The only time I raise the front is to start a cut , which I thought I said, need maximum penetration. There are a lot of things that stand up to get maximum penetration.

  8. #23
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    Somebody said it a ways back, run what you brung.

  9. #24
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    LOL at scrubpuller? A dozer that size cant take much more then 6! Its a D5, it dont have the ponies nor the weight to take a foot cut

  10. #25
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    Yair...a few issues here I reckon. First off the penetration thing...with a blade or with a scoop unless you’re working sand or loamy/ peaty top soil then to get maximum production it is necessary to rip.

    (I just ducked for cover then)

    Just because you can push it and get a “good boil going” without ripping doesn’t mean to say you’re being productive ...but you are burning fuel and cutting edge. Ripping time is seldom wasted. I have proved it building ring tanks...a ring tank is basically a thirty foot wall pushed up around a paddock, a small one is shown here. http://www.panoramio.com/photo/46259159

    I worked on these with a motley crew of hired in dozers and cross sections taken for payment soon sorted the men out from the boys. From my experience over many years...and the old Caterpillar how to films...you absolutely have to rip.

    And that is just the start of it. Once you’ve got it ripped you have to know how to work your slots. Fair dinkum, I have seen fellers rip (and when I say rip I mean cross rip) and then back out over their block and start pushing from the back!!
    Once you have it ripped you line up for your push and back out onto the ripped area about one tractor length. The blade will bury with very little effort and the objective is to get the tracks working on the interface between the rip and the next floor down. In other words you take out the full depth of the rip in one pass.

    In practice you will find that as you come back for the next push you will bulge one bladefull out and then back up for another...some times in “ball bearing” country you can have two or three bladefulls moving in the slot. With this style of dozing you get less “ boiling” in front of the blade, in ideal conditions it will just sit there as if being carried in a scraper.

    I could continue on down thread if anyone is genuinely interested...I have a very thick skin and I’m used to copping flack.

    I was interested in Gregs comments. It seems he works his drawn scoops as if they were scrapers. I have always worked them different...and a tidy cut is not part of the equation.

    Cheers

  11. #26
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    Greg our NRCS is useing the $1.40 for earthfill estamate then they pay 1/2 of that but we still work by the hour some small ponds will still get close to the estamate but not very often.
    Scrub the dirt we have in this part of the northern hemisphere dosnt usually get riped because it dosent help. I have ripped both ways and only cut slits in the wet stuff it dosent heeve or crumble some of it wont hardly come off the blade and when it does it is like driveing over a suv we call it tiger shi--t. We do get lucky every once and a while and get some sandy clay that will crumble and lay out in nice lifts.
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  12. #27
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    Yair...gotcha Cowman. There a few exeptions as I mentioned...although your tiger sh#t sounds a little different LOL.

  13. #28
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    Scrub Puller, I won't say I have a tidy cut when "hogging" out the material before getting towards the bottom of the cut. No ripper used in conditions like being discussed here because if the material were ripped first it would not load as good and would not get good boiling over load on the pan.

    Nobody does work around here for $1.40 per yard on jobs like that.

  14. #29
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    Yair...Greg I understand...although I am never adverse to a bit of pumping when it comes to loading pans, a well ripped floor, bog it in, two pumps to get it falling off the low side and I'm out. It doesn't make for pretty though.

    Any pictures? I would be interested to see your set-up with the rippers on tractors that are set up to run scoops.

    ih100...when I said in fifty years of watching I have seen very few dozer operators that can push dirt that is absolutely true...most were competent operators but had never been taught correct bulking out and slot dozing techniqes. I have been able to double a tractors production on bulk pushing by a few minutes explanation to an operator...if they know their bickies it does'nt take long before it clicks.

    Even if you are paying by yardage it was annoying to have a tractor on the job that is not giving out it's best...I had one bloke on a D7 that could out produce most Eights...untill I had a whisper to the operators on the Eight. Some of course wouldn't listen and had been doing it their way for thirty years..rah...rah...rah...who the f##k was I to tell them how to push?

    The technique improved a lot when I published monthly yardage numbers, as I said, it sorted the men out from the boys. And yes, I have forgotten the numbers but toque converter Twenty Ones would often outpush the same vintage D8's.

  15. #30
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    I have the traditional set up Scrub Puller. Pan hooks onto the Cat drawbar in the traditional manner. If we rip, it is a separate Cat with traditional ripper on it and blade on the front.

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