scraper questions

[Randy88]

I've got plenty of questions and am looking for advice. I need to get some sort of scraper to speed up the dirt moving process. I'm a smaller contractor who does smaller jobs, but the dirt moving is getting further and further and to push it with a cat will take forever, we are stripping black dirt and need to move it 500-800 ft and also do some building sites where we strip the black dirt back and haul out the clay to another hill top to use as fill. I've got several cats, but only one is large enough to really pull much a komatsu at 180 hp and a smaller dozer at 120 hp, if I pull a scraper with the small one I could push it with the larger one, if I use the bigger one to pull a scraper, I really don't have much to help push with. I've looked at several self propelled scrapers but don't really want the chain version, they look like a lot to maintain and upkeep and was thinking towards a smaller bowl version, first off is there one made say in that 10-15 yard version and who makes it, all the cats I've seen that small are elevated versions and I've also seen the dresser with the rhome bowls but know nothing about them, I don't want twin engine and with a single engine I could use a cat to help push load it if needed. Parts availability is also important to me.

Is there a big difference between the different bowl types I've read about. I've got mostly black dirt and clay to move, some limestone mixed in but not much, I could also load with an excavator if need be. Any advice or input would be appreciated.

[sheepfoot]

hi Randy88, years ago i worked for a large grading firm, we had all grades of equipment and did alot of site and farm work with
dozers and pans both the pull type,paddle wheel and twin engine. The TS14 bowl pan with the twin engine gave the most bang for the buck and would work well in most soils,speed/power and the rear engine aided in alot of self loading,spoil pile building,wet ground. I had a ts14 with me on most sites working the dirt with very few problems with them, they just keep going. We did most service work in house and did repairs before they caused down time. If I were to need a pan today I would not think twice to find a TS14B and move some dirt. There is a place for the pull pans and paddle wheels but the ts14 allway's did a great job for us.

[SE-Ia Cowman]

I started a thread last summer on the dressor with a rome bowl and only got 1 reply. I thought they would be a nice machine for small jobs and they didnt weigh enough to be a hassel to move. I found out that the navy had them made special and they were not marketed to the civialian sector. They had a IH 466 engine and that would be a selling point to me. Cat also made a 611 with open bowl it was heaver than dressor but could be loaded with a D6 push cat. If you have a 180 hp machine with ripper valve or aux hydraulics I would look for a ashland or a laplant choate or a 108 allis chalmers. Dont let someone talk you in to a 435 cat I think they are overrated and to heavy. We have a 611 converted to a pull scraper and it is to heavy and does not unload as well as I would like it to.

[Randy88]

Thanks for the replies, I've been looking a long time for something and as of yet not sure which way to go, for one the older motorized units are about as cheap or cheaper than a pull scraper and I was thinking it wouldn't tie up my dozer if I were to get a self propelled scraper dedicated to moving dirt, I too was looking at the size of the dresser units and for the price it was about what a good pull scraper would cost me and be a lot faster cycle times vs. the dozer and also easier on my undercarriages on my dozers. First off what's a rome bowl vs. other designs and is there a big difference between pull scrapers designs and how they load and unload?

Also how does the elevated scrapers work, been looking at prices of those and they are about nothing for dollars to buy one but my thinking was upkeep would kill a person on those.

My smaller dozer at 120hp has been set up for pulling a scraper, the previous owner pulled a cat 60 with it I'd have to add the hydraulics to my 180 hp dozer but my help is wanting a motor scraper instead, I can see their point, dollars for dollars I could have another machine and still use the dozer onsite to help push a scraper though at times. The size of the the cat 621's and some of the others is just too big for the work I do I'm thinking but maybe I"m wrong once I had one, I've seen several older IH machines with the open bowls on them on auctions in the past, maybe they were once military as well, all I know was they were cheap at the time and looked in good shape, the only comment that was made at the auction was they were too small for anything worthwhile, I thought they were about right sized and looked handy to me but thats before we ever thought of buying one, other than a cat 611 is there any other single engine smaller scrapers made?

I've looked at some of the TS14's twin engine and man they are huge in size, other than to road them I don't think there's any way I could haul them around to job sites, I saw somewhere that they made a single engine or was I told wrong, I've never seen one of those before if they did or is the twin engine 14 the smallest unit terex made?

[Greg]

Do a wide variety of work here with D8's pulling Cat No. 80 scrapers and D7 pulling No. 70. Most of the time no push Cat used. Going gets tough Use D7 to Push D8's. In my opinion your 500 to 800 feet run is perfect for Cat and pan. As far as what the hired help wants carry much with me. It is about what the bottom line says. If you have a D6 set up to pull a pan I would say go for that option.

[Randy88]

Thanks Greg, for the input, is there a major difference between brands of scrapers, all I've been told is Cat is the way to go, they load and dump out better than others, until you talk to someone who has another brand, is it basically just a ford, gm,dodge thing or is there a viable difference for one over the other, all I've ever used is a small scraper behind a tractor, basically nothing for experience.

I asked a local guy and he told me to buy a larger scraper say a cat 70 or 80 and not open it as far and use another cat to help push load it if need be, how much trouble will a person get in doing that, his reasoning was the larger ones are cheaper and more readily available to find and also hold more to make less trips, is this any advice to even consider, my thoughts were I'd end up on the short end of horsepower and his comment was don't fill it so full, again ??

[Greg]

If you are going to pull it with a D6, get a no. 60. It is designed and built to go behind a D6. The width of the machine is designed to work with the tread width of a D6. I hooked on of my no. 80's behind a D7 one time. If I would have been on flat ground it probably would have worked out better, but ran out of traction on the grades. A no. 70 is good for 9 to 11 yards, no. 80 18 without side boards. Lots of extra weight that requires the extra weight and track of a D8 to pull. Use the right size pan for the tractor and you will be a lot happier and have more flexibility on the things you can do. Bigger scraper and not opening it as far doesn't even sound good when you say it fast. A no. 80 cat loaded with 18 yards is going to weigh in at 74 to 78,000 pounds. That is a lot for a D6 to pull around when you look at the horsepower and weight you have. Before you run out of horsepower you will run out of traction and simply spin out.

[Randy88]

That was my thought on the subject too, when I looked at the 80 I thought it might be a stretch to just pull it around empty let alone with anything in it, on the cat 60's did they change anything on them over the years other than adding hydraulics to them or where there updates over the years that make one better than another, same goes for the rest of the brands mentioned. Se-Ia Cowman all the units you mentioned were with front wheels right not the direct mounted versions, I didn't even find a 108 for sale but what other models were you thinking about for the other brands?

[Taylortractornu]

We run JD 762 scrapers at work. We can usually get them for around 10 to 25 K. JD has stopped selling alot of parts for them but these are mostly bought aftermarket by JD themselves. I like the way the Elevators unload pulverized soil and finish to. Rocks are a problem for them but we rarely deal with them. THe chain is a maintenance item to. We generally wear out a chain every few years. JD was gettign 7500 for them We get them from Ballantine through HeavyQUip for 2000 as well as the sprockets and chains. Like said above the TS14B is run here by the 2 main contractors with scrapers. ALmost indestructible. Simple to fix and good in mud. We had 2 rented on a job in 98 and both had alot of down time but we had rented the mans back ups. I didnt like the lack of down pressure on the bowl but that was the only dislike.

We out worked 6 bigh tractors and dual pans on that job for the manuveralbityily of the Terexes and the 762. I have run one of the Rome bowled 412 IH machines. I liked it we were in a n area slighly rocky. I was helping a friend whose boss had takin a scraper job with out scrapers. He got both unis for 22000 for the pair. He had an old TD 25 on site and he could load up in a few feet till the othe machince got there. What i hate about a 412 with the motor and transmission like they is they are tippy in a turn. And the shifter is on the left hand side. Ive run both paddle wheeled version of it to as well as the Rome unit.

Rome also did a 613 version to. We loaded our 412 with a D5B and a TD 15 to. But the most dirt Ive moved on any scraper is the 762s at work. Ive worn one down to the boneyard and have 2 others to use.

[SE-Ia Cowman]

Yes Randy all the units I had in mind were dolly wheel scrapers. I havent seen a Laplant Choate for sale any where on the internet and belive me when I find one I will buy it. They were made in the late 40's and early 50's then allis chalmers bought them the model 314 was a round bottom machine. The reason I like them is the apron will open so wide you could ride a horse in one, the wet gumbo and tiger sh*t will come out with out hanging up. The AC 108 was about the same just a little smaller. We rented a ashland 18 yard last summer and pulled it with a 7R and it worked well they are not as heavy as a cat and probably wont last 60 or 70 years but they load and unload well, the ashland scrapers are more of a agg scraper but the only diffirence I have found is the cutting edge is about 22 degrees vs 45 or 50 degrees and that means less power to load but usualy a longer pull before they are full. I was reading some brochures on the cat 17 and 22 yard direct mount scrapers and they are advertiseing them to be pulled with D7's, D8's and D9's there is a youtube video showing a D8 pulling one. I would like to know how the uc wear is with 25000 lbs toung weight and how well they would turn.

[clansing1]

International Dresser 412B w/ 505 Cummins Engine (more power than the IH 466) w/ paddle wheel. As long as the conditions are not too wet and you know how to run it you do not need a push machine. With the right clay soil and moisture content, you do not need a compactor and can get 98% + compaction by driving over the area with a full load. The paddle wheel pulverizes the soil and is self loading. The bowl holds 11 yards struck I believe. They started making this machine in 1987 and I believe the machine Serial Number starts off at 17000. You can these machine relatively cheap ($12K-15K). Parts can be a problem onced in awhile, but you can find them. I would stay away from the military machines and the open bowl. The open bowl needs to be pushed and the military machines have parts that are not standard and might be impossible to find.

This machine is easy to mobilize (it is road legal) and can be used in tight areas. In the right applications it can be a real $$ maker. This is a better paddle wheel design than the CAT or Deere.

Just my 2 cents.

[Randy88]

Thanks for the variety of input guys, the more opinions and experience the more things I've never thought of before. I've read the replies and had a few days to think about what was said, which brings about more questions yet. First off a push cat really doesn't bother me, to me it would be easier to push a scraper than hassle with the elevator version and all the repairs that go with them, or is this a wrong idea to have, the next thought was a single engine scraper and use a push cat to help out loading if needed depending on conditions.

The problem I'm seeing with a pull scraper is I have one cat set up to pull it and thats the one everyone wants to use, I either have to have hydraulics on more than one dozer or the one thats in highest demand would always be somewhere else when needed to pull a scraper, not that putting hydraulics on more than one would be a bad idea, the other thing is I'm not seeing this as a high use item for hours a year or hours at a time either for that matter and more than likely I'd have to move in the dozer with the hydraulics on and pull in the scraper where as I could just drive a scraper to the job site and help push it with any dozer I've got there already, maybe its not a big deal in the long run but those are the first things that stick out to me.

Its been mentioned a few times that there is a difference between machines, for either the elevator versions or the scraper bowl versions, one brand works better than another, can anyone tell me the difference between a kress bowl or a rome bowl or the others made for that matter, whats a rounded bottom vs a flat and whats it mean to the operation of them, I understand the difference between the cutting edge angle and also the ability for it to dump out bigger chunks of material if the mouth opening is larger, also which ones use forced ejection vs more of dumping style and which is better for more diverse materials.

Also I've been told this by several operators that Terex is the only scraper to buy either single engine or twin engine and when I asked why they told me they are built the best and worked the best and thats about all I got for an explanation. Any ideas as to why or is it just they were a big fan of terex's

I'm not stating any facts just asking more questions as to what I see and also what I've been told in the past by others that I really don't understand as to why they told me the things they did, I know if I'd spend a couple thousand hours running each machine I'd also have opinions of them as well and look at someone who's basically never run one as stupid but I'm trying to come up with the best all around solution to cover the most options without ever really running one, something I've never done before.

Also is there a place that rents both pull scrapers and motor scrapers? After a few days of operating them I'd know which way I'd want to go or at least have more intelligent questions to ask. Thanks for the patience and time you've taken to help out.

[stumpjumper83]

Terex ts14b is a simple proven, reliable way to move alot of dirt. I don't know that you will be happy with just one though. At 800' to the pile your going to what probably three pans to one dozer, other wise the dozer will idle alot. If you wanna take advantage of what a scraper can do for you, everything needs to run nice and smooth, with as little waiting as possible. In easy loading dirt, three pans and a cat should be runnin 7k yards a day at a min.

[SE contractor]

Your local Cat dealer should be able to rent you a pull scraper or a motor scraper, and your John Deere dealer should be able to rent you pull scrapers. We have small development job this has been continious for 10 years now and we do all of our earth moving there with a John Deere tractor It's an 8400 and a 15 yd scraper with a laser attahced for grading. We also pull a water tanker with it, disc, a drag blade, etc.. Its not a lot of dirt we have to move but its generaly 1500 ft or better. On other larger projects we utilize Cat Push scrapers, Double engine , and elevating scrapers along with challenger tractors with double 17 yd bowls. Ive used all of them but I suggest to you the smaller 8400 for its smaller up front cost and its versatility

[Randy88]

Thanks for the replies, I've been asking questions to everyone I know and with about 50 different people comes about 52 different answers or ways to go about handling one problem, we've ruled out a pull type hitch mounted scraper but are researching dolly wheel pull scrapers really hard and also single engine older motor scrapers yet, we've also ruled out elevating scrapers for now.

The next question I've got is how much power does it take to load a pull scraper with sideboards vs no sideboards, the reason I'm asking is some have told me to find a newer scraper with a lesser cutting angle on the cutting edge and match it closer to my track width than the older say cat scrapers, I've been measuring a cat 60 and they have a cutting width of 7 foot and a 70 jumps up to 8.5 foot cutting width, people tell me to match closer to the width of my tracks and go newer with a more gradual load angle on the cutting edge and I'll be way happier than buying one either too narrow or too wide, they also told me I can pull a larger load of dirt if its more matched in width with a less cutting angle than I could even a cat 60, any ideas on that advice? It sounds not too far fetched but is reality the same as theory? Does the load angle make that much difference on how much harder it pulls to load, say in theory a load angle of 22 degree's will pull a lot easier than a scraper with a load angle of 45 degree's, there's no way it could pull half as hard is there. A few told me I could pull a newer pull scraper with a lower load angle thats 14 yard easier than an older 10 yard with a load angle on the cutting edge of 40-50 degree's, is there any way this is true or just someone's theory? Any input on this would be appreciated, also what's the load angle on the cutting edge of any motor scraper or are they all different?