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Thread: tractor pans or scrapers which do you like better

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitchell2905 View Post
    Here is a cost comparison on why pull pans are best: http://www.pullpans.com/Cost.pdf
    I suspect that that is a highly biased study.

    That must be one powerfull D6 to burn 16 gallons of fuel an hour. I seriously doubt that tractors and pull pans would not require a compactor. I also think that a regular scraper can take care of a haul road just as good if not better than a tractor/pan combo would. And I could go on, but you get the point.

    This all depends on the site conditions more than anything, but I woulden't believe that comparison any more that I would believe a used car salesman.

    Now where can I buy fuel for $1.50/gal like it said on there....

  2. #17
    Senior Member 637slayer's Avatar
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    i have always believed the cat twin engine scraper to be the most versatile all around piece of machinery cat ever made, the 37 to be my favorite. from building roads to digging lakes the only support equipment you need is a fuel truck, unless you get into rock then you need a ripper.
    ive never run a pull scraper but i think tractors are for farming too.
    this is what you got, make something happen.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by 637slayer View Post
    i have always believed the cat twin engine scraper to be the most versatile all around piece of machinery cat ever made, the 37 to be my favorite. from building roads to digging lakes the only support equipment you need is a fuel truck, unless you get into rock then you need a ripper.
    ive never run a pull scraper but i think tractors are for farming too.
    Self propelled scrapers will soon go the way of the Dinosaur. Ag tractors and pans are the wave of the future. No mines or dirt-moving operation around my area uses traditional scrapers any more.
    R.I.P. "Captian" stripping shovel.

  4. #19
    Senior Member JDOFMEMI's Avatar
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    Those of you touting the pull pans are lucky enough to be in a portion of the country where the soil is consistent. Here on the west coast, the jobs are varied from one to the next, and even from one side of the site to the other. Many have tried pull pans, and I do not know of a single one within 200 miles, and I live in the scraper capital of the world, over 2500 scrapers 623 and larger in that same 200 mile area.
    The scraper study referenced above has so many holes in it, you could not bail out a mudhole.
    The pull pans have their place, just not here.
    Here tractors pull discs and bee gee's, or they work on the farm.
    Jerry

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitchell2905 View Post
    We had some Cat srapers at our operation when we started, but quickly got rid of them and got Challengers because the self-propelled units were way to slow. The Challengers and John Deere tractors can move much more dirt quicker and at a much lower cost. But the operators do drive fast enough to get all 4 wheels off the ground on occasion!
    Explain to me how tractors are quicker than a self propelled machine? The info I find and challengers says they have a top ROAD speed of 24mph. Where as a Cat 627G has a top speed of 32mph while the cat 637G and 657G have a top speed of 33mph. I personally have had a 627G up to 36mph unloaded. My average speed while loaded was easily 30mph. Mind you that was with a rated capacity of 52,800lbs. I dont know of any tractor pan combos that can do that.

    I dont understand how these tractor combos can even compare. Yes, purchase is lower, fuel is lower. But you have twice as many tires on the tractor compared to the self propelled. Then your looking at another 2-4 on each pan You have twice as many hitchs, cutting edges, lifting systems to repair. You have to break everything down to move it. at best, 2 truckloads if you have a truck driver who has the testicles to move a tractor with one pan hitched up, but more than likely its 3 trucks.

    I see the upside vs a elevating scraper. They are not a production machine compared to an open bowl. But the elevators will always have their place with a finish crew. I think they may even compete with the single engines on an actual dirt site. Compete with the twins, for time and productivity? No way. The twins will maintain their own haul road with out slowing down to a crawl. They will out run, and out manuever a tractor with two pans. Lets see a tractor/pan work with a dozer while cutting a V ditch. Bring your tractor/pans to a rock job and compete with the twins, tell me how it works out for ya

  6. #21
    Senior Member EZ TRBO's Avatar
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    I don't have alot of time around a number of different scrapers. We have our own 1970 JD 860 paddle wheel and for us it has worked great for years, for sure lots of breakdowns but that many moving parts over that many years its bound to happen. For a smaller company it was nice, go out with just that machine and fully strip an area of a project, kept your haul roads maintained, your stock pile sloped and wide enough and would be all ready to move the dozers in.

    Only time I have really worked with a different type was with a TS-14, I ran circles around it, until we got to rock then he kept going and I had to find more clay. I enjoy running the self loaders(have been on our own 860, and rented 762's and 862's for bigger projects), nice to just do your own thing, haul your dirt and no one really bothered me.

    No experince on the pans, but they were the thing on the dozers back in the day, and now with the AG type tractors. However, I am always told, don't by a full blown ag tractor, buy the ones that are built for industrial use, as ag is not built as heavy as industrial. Equipment World did a article on tractor/pan combos a few years ago. Nice advice, bout how the different companies are building AG LIKE tractors built just for the type of pulling a scraper demands.
    Trbo
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  7. #22
    Senior Member Construct'O's Avatar
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    I agree i would wether put build my busniess on the 627 and 637 machine here where i live.To much mud.If i had those size job to do.Especially day in and out.

    For short hauls and lots of room the tractor -pan thing might not be so bad.

    For my little projects even the dozer with my hydraulic pull scraper works good.I use to have ag tractor for the power unit,plus also hydraulic unit on my dozer.That way i could use the hydrulic scraper either on the dozer or the tractor if need be.

    We are talking soil conservation type work.Terrace,ponds,waterways and small building sites.I use a 14 struck, 16 yard heaped,Ashland scraper and a D6 dozer.

  8. #23
    Senior Member EZ TRBO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Construct'O View Post
    I agree i would wether put build my busniess on the 627 and 637 machine here where i live.To much mud.If i had those size job to do.Especially day in and out.

    For short hauls and lots of room the tractor -pan thing might not be so bad.

    For my little projects even the dozer with my hydraulic pull scraper works good.I use to have ag tractor for the power unit,plus also hydraulic unit on my dozer.That way i could use the hydrulic scraper either on the dozer or the tractor if need be.

    We are talking soil conservation type work.Terrace,ponds,waterways and small building sites.I use a 14 struck, 16 yard heaped,Ashland scraper and a D6 dozer.
    Bout the only difference in you and what we used to do is the location and you have said before, the trenching. Most times the 860 was all we needed for what we did. Add the 2 15C's and the 312 was bout perfect for us, oh yeah and the 773 Bobcat.

    Trbo
    Doing what I can with what I got!

  9. #24
    Senior Member RollOver Pete's Avatar
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    I read somewhere that the cost per yard was less with a pull pan.
    Weather it is true or not, I wouldn't know.
    I've never been around or seen pull pans working.
    I'd like to...
    I'm sure they have their place.
    RollOver Pete
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    "Hello, I'm Pete and I'm a workaholic"

  10. #25
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    We have 2 Case IH 485 Quads with ATI tracks, 6 627G's, 2 627 F's, 4 615's,4 613's and 5 TS14's. Each has a different use. Don't use a 613 to dig a pond and a 627 to finish a Condo pad. The Quads work great on wet topsoil but a 627 works on a long haul with a good haul road.
    Last edited by Steve Frazier; 03-07-2008 at 08:38 PM. Reason: Please use default color when posting

  11. #26
    Senior Member Deere9670's Avatar
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    The local construction company was working on a tollway extension by my house all summer and they had all kinds of scrapers running including cat challengers pulling double and even triple pull pans. The one thing I dident understand was how do you see your cut height on the second and third pans? And does the operator have like "a million levers" in the cab or hows does he control each pan? Can some one explain this to me?

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by RollOver Pete View Post
    I read somewhere that the cost per yard was less with a pull pan.
    Weather it is true or not, I wouldn't know.
    I've never been around or seen pull pans working.
    I'd like to...
    I'm sure they have their place.
    I cant see it happening. Our crew consisted of two Terex Ts14b, Cat D7H, Cat 815B, and Cat D5N. We would double haul as much as we could. On the good jobs, we could move topsoil at 89 cents a cyd. This covered the cost of the 14s and the 5 cleaning up and hitting the haul roads. Cut to fill at 96 cents a cyd. This covered the cost of the 14s, the 7 for push loading, and the 815 for compaction. The 5 would be billed half the day to topsoil, and the rest of the day was billed to fine grading. Most of the jobs were bid at $1.50 a cyd for topsoil, and around 2 bucks a cyd for cut to fill. Needless to say, when we asked for new seats on the scrapers, the company didnt think twice about taking care of us

  13. #28
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    As far as the Ag. Tractors go on a cheaper costs per yard on the office end, I believe it. Keep in mind I don't work for a company and the only scraper I operated was a Deere 862B cutting subgrade for a driveway. The ag. tractors have a pretty low rate on them alone. The rate of the scrapers themselves there isn't much there, the life on the pan part isn't probably too bad, the tractor is where the life part of it struggles. I look at it as having no push dozer in the cut, here in Northwest Ohio we are on flat ground with fair soil. Most of our projects are highways with borrow pits and reservoirs, which don't make for bad dirt moving. I like to compare them to McAninch's scrapers but with a lower cost on the 'lead' machine.

    I think the downside would be the money result and the condition of the machine after it's all said and done. Certain situations will acquire a dozer in the cut to help push load, which adds a hefty rate per hours, don't forget another operator. As I'm sure everyone knows dirt machines get beat pretty bad when your on a tight schedule and want to move a lot of dirt fast, the ag. tractors aren't originially built for rough work, there meant to pull disks, compactors, and farm.

    It really tells me something though when Beaver Excavating and ES Wagner have went to these for some of there dirt crews.

    Until I operate, supervise, bid, and count the money on both after the projects I will keep myself nuetral.

  14. #29
    Senior Member JDOFMEMI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deere9670 View Post
    ..... The one thing I dident understand was how do you see your cut height on the second and third pans? And does the operator have like "a million levers" in the cab or hows does he control each pan? Can some one explain this to me?
    The ones I have seen have the three traditional "levers" though they are little more than glorified toggle switches for electric over hydraulic operation, and then a diverter switch to change from the front pan to the back one, and easily adding a third.
    With 2 or 3 pans, before coming into the cut, set each edge just off the ground (the rear ones have a rod sticking up that lets you "see" the height of the edge), then you load first the front, pull it up, switch, load the second, and switch again if you have a third.
    Leave the control set to the back, and unload the reverse of loading (most times).
    Deere, Volvo, Bell, and probably others have programmable automated loading and dumping functions, but I think they only work in nice consistent material. Of course that is the only place I think the pull pans work anyway, so I bet it is a good deal.

    I demoed a Challenger MT865, with 2-17CY E-Ject pans, the same ones Cat now brands as theirs. We were in blow sand, and after a little practice, they would outwork anything else I have seen in those conditions.
    I know the cans are too high in the pic, but not when I was running it!
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    Jerry

  15. #30
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    A lot of people are getting overly excited here lets not forget that different machines do some jobs better than others. The pull pans have their advantages mainly operating in light soils and sandy clays were they can load fast and from an owners perspective will pull more profit if you buy new and trade in after a short while. However I reckon 627's are a more stable business proposition-the higher purchase price is easily pulled back after few years work with out any worries about market fluctuations affecting residual values.

    Neil

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