Old paddle pans

Hello. I'm a small contractor in central Va with a fleet of mostly older equipment with mechanical engines and transmissions. We are considering picking up a small paddle pan, more because I want one than any immediate need, but we have been on a couple of jobs lately where I think a pan would have been faster than the couple of on road dumps being loaded by our PC 200. We have a 35 ton lowboy 8'6" wide deck with outriggers, and a 22' deck. Most of our work is within an hour of Richmond, so no mountains to deal with. We also have a good mechanic and a nice shop. We buy stuff and go over it in the shop and rebuild/replace over the winter. We are not a high production operation, most work negotiated, and debt averse. I have been looking at a few Cat 613s and 615s, Deere 762 and 862s, and a couple of 412 IH/Dresssers.
A friend of mine is trying to get me interested in a Hancock 294 with a pair of Detroits. I ran TS 14-Bs in the late 70's and think they would be too much trouble to move without buying a bigger trailer. Is the Hancock going to be a nightmare sourcing parts for, or will most of it be supported by Clark or Terex? I would really appreciate your opinions of the pros and cons of the machines I am considering. Thanks.

IMHO converting a Wabco 111A to full hydraulics should be considered. By replacing the generator with a through drive transmission pump, replacing the elevator motor and gearbox with a hydraulic motor and planetary gearbox. For the steering use the same motor gearbox combo with brakes. Then I believe you would have a scraper that could load faster, haul faster and be just as reliable as any Cat or Inter of it's size.

I had a 613 for a time, they are good for tight work and finishing with a grader but awfully small for dirt moving, rough riding little scraper too. 615 is a notch up with a suspension axle and a couple more yards. Really depends on what type of work you are doing. I had a pair of 623's to move dirt, they worked out well for me. Can't comment on the other makes.

Don't be afraid to step back in time fuggley .

Elevating scraper was made for a small operator ......

They are about the perfect machine when moving dry dirt .... Grading , haulin & packing .

For hoggin dirt drop some teeth on the cutting edge ....

https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/threads/hendrix-dragline-bucket-teeth.68007/#post-707038

Tones said:

IMHO converting a Wabco 111A to full hydraulics should be considered. By replacing the generator with a through drive transmission pump, replacing the elevator motor and gearbox with a hydraulic motor and planetary gearbox. For the steering use the same motor gearbox combo with brakes. Then I believe you would have a scraper that could load faster, haul faster and be just as reliable as any Cat or Inter of it's size.

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Tones, thanks for the input. The only Wabcos I can find are 222's. What would you estimate the cost to perform the upfit to be?

DPete said:

I had a 613 for a time, they are good for tight work and finishing with a grader but awfully small for dirt moving, rough riding little scraper too. 615 is a notch up with a suspension axle and a couple more yards. Really depends on what type of work you are doing. I had a pair of 623's to move dirt, they worked out well for me. Can't comment on the other makes.

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DPete, thank you. I'm seeing auction prices on 613s running between 6 and 10K. Most of my guys are older and would appreciate a better ride, as would I. I also have reservations about the 3208's reliability and replacement options. In your experience, is the 615 worth another 5K? Thanks again.

td25c said:

Don't be afraid to step back in time fuggley .

Elevating scraper was made for a small operator ......

They are about the perfect machine when moving dry dirt .... Grading , haulin & packing .

For hoggin dirt drop some teeth on the cutting edge ....

https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/threads/hendrix-dragline-bucket-teeth.68007/#post-707038

Click to expand...

td25c said:

Don't be afraid to step back in time fuggley .

Elevating scraper was made for a small operator ......

They are about the perfect machine when moving dry dirt .... Grading , haulin & packing .

For hoggin dirt drop some teeth on the cutting edge ....

https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/threads/hendrix-dragline-bucket-teeth.68007/#post-707038

Click to expand...

TD25C, Thanks for your response. FWIW, I LIVE back in time. A friend sent me a copy of an antique construction machinery magazine that featured a Trojan loader that we were using on a job at the local VA hospital at the time, and I saw that at this year's Conexpo, Deere had restored for display a 570A like the one we use every time we need it. Our new triaxle is a '91 120. For us, older stuff works out way better than the debt, complications with computerized systems, and emissions restrictions. I have doubts about the ability to get 10,000 hours from contemporary engines, too.
That being said, I want to minimize the engineering and fabrication required to keep stuff running that is no longer supported because the original manufacturer went bankrupt or got bought out. The Hancock interests me because it seems to me to be a good design and well built originally. Detroit and Clark were popular enough, I hope, to still have parts and aftermarket support. My concern is the cost to rework the old girl. Hoses aren't puking, but are extremely weathered, my inclination would be to replace any that are questionable, tires all need replaced, etc.. The gamble is whether to buy and old pan for a few thousand dollars and put another 10 or more thousand in it and have to sell it for scrap value if we have another "economic downturn" like '08-'15 was for us, or to get something like a 615 at what is likely the bottom of the forseeable market, use it for maintenance cost, and recoup most, if not all the initial purchase price if things get crappy again. Thanks.

With what tires & hydro hose / parts cost today you may be better off spending more up front & buying a running machine that's been maintained .

I've been eyeballin these older Deere 860's . Got the Detroit 6-71 in them

https://www.machinerytrader.com/listings/construction-equipment/for-sale/20179211/1974-deere-860a

Fuggly, I have no idea on the cost in your neck of the woods. Here in Australia a 90 series 100cc Danfoss costs around 9 grand new so maybe half that in the states. For 222 that size pump could be to small. So far as elevator motors is concerned the only reason I suggested going to a planetary drive is that I assume Wabco gearbox parts would be hard to come by these days. I'm just thinking outside the square.
Many years ago I watched a 623 and a 222 working together and the 222 was doing 1/3 more cycles. I reckon the Hancock is away faster loading than a Johnson, that's comparing a 613 to a 111A.

I would urge you to stay away from the 613 just for the sake of that god awful 3208. It's a money pit in any application. Just my opinion. That 615 is a good machine

td25c said:

With what tires & hydro hose / parts cost today you may be better off spending more up front & buying a running machine that's been maintained .

I've been eyeballin these older Deere 860's . Got the Detroit 6-71 in them

https://www.machinerytrader.com/listings/construction-equipment/for-sale/20179211/1974-deere-860a

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Thanks, I looked at a 1st gen 615 today. I'll see how that plays out.

Tones said:

Fuggly, I have no idea on the cost in your neck of the woods. Here in Australia a 90 series 100cc Danfoss costs around 9 grand new so maybe half that in the states. For 222 that size pump could be to small. So far as elevator motors is concerned the only reason I suggested going to a planetary drive is that I assume Wabco gearbox parts would be hard to come by these days. I'm just thinking outside the square.
Many years ago I watched a 623 and a 222 working together and the 222 was doing 1/3 more cycles. I reckon the Hancock is away faster loading than a Johnson, that's comparing a 613 to a 111A.

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Tones, thanks again. I'm leaning towards a running or nearly running piece that is more bolting parts up than anything else.

d9gdon said:

I would urge you to stay away from the 613 just for the sake of that god awful 3208. It's a money pit in any application. Just my opinion. That 615 is a good machine

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Thank you. I looked at one today (615) that might work out with a little luck. I'll post whatever happens.

fuggly said:

Tones, thanks for the input. The only Wabcos I can find are 222's. What would you estimate the cost to perform the upfit to be?

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Which 222s are you finding? No way in hell would I try to get away from an electric elevator drive... That's what makes a Wabco kick a Cat in the butt. Had a 222F that ate 623's for lunch that were 20 years newer. I could outload them and get out of the cut faster and I had no fear of running full tilt boogie to stay ahead.

Pretty amazing how efficient those electric drive WABCO's were with the hancock elevating bowl chowing down the dirt .

td25c said:

Pretty amazing how efficient those electric drive WABCO's were with the hancock elevating bowl chowing down the dirt .

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I've run the old electric steer 333A's that could take a 2'' skim cut and leave nothing but router bit tracks, and no dribble at the end of the cut. cleanest loaders I've ever seen.

Very smooth & tidy machines RZ !

td25c said:

Very smooth & tidy machines RZ !

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Yep. I think the Hancock bowls loaded better than the later Wabco built bowls because the cutting edge angle was less steep. You got a little less usable life from the cutting edge but it sure loaded better. I've played with a bunch of different machines trying extended flight bars and other tricks but still couldn't make them load like the old Hancock.

This is what we are talking about fuggly .

WABCO tractor with a Hancock elevating bowl behind . Damn good combination !

http://www.heavytruckforums.com/showthread.php?263-Some-Holmes-750-action&p=2630&viewfull=1#post2630

I got a big laugh out of my uncles comments .......... He said they load better if you push them with a dozer . My God !

Ahh ...... Uncle .... We runnin a WABCO ..... You ran the Terex scrapers .

No need to push load a well tuned elevating scraper .

td25c said:

This is what we are talking about fuggly .

WABCO tractor with a Hancock elevating bowl behind . Damn good combination !

http://www.heavytruckforums.com/showthread.php?263-Some-Holmes-750-action&p=2630&viewfull=1#post2630

I got a big laugh out of my uncles comments .......... He said they load better if you push them with a dozer . My God !

Ahh ...... Uncle .... We runnin a WABCO ..... You ran the Terex scrapers .

No need to push load a well tuned elevating scraper .

Click to expand...

Push loading will just jam up the elevator, but... I have pushed elevating machines in slimy mud/clay or saturated sand. The machine was at wide open throttle with the trans in neutral to put maximum power to the elevator and Mr. push cat guy was instructed to be very gentle pushing and watch the elevator output. Twin engine Wabco's had this built in feathering ability where you could load very fast in a short distance using full power from the front engine and using the rear to just nudge the machine forward as the elevator pulled material in.