580C Stanadyne timing

So I'm getting a fair amount of white smoke. It happens on startup and anytime I give it throttle. The smoke gets darker under load when I was checking the power steering pressures at full RPM. It did this when I bought it, but seems worse now. I've adjust the valves(very loose) and double checked them. I also just rebuilt the cooling system. New water pump, thermostat, and fixed a leak on the radiator.
I did NOT remove or adjust the IP, just checked the timing since I was doing the valves.
I also noticed some white smoke out of the breather tube and oil fill tube when I checked the oil. The coolant and oil appear OK.
Also, it always starts right up on the first crank even after dumping the fuel out of the IP and not bleeding it.
Any suggestions on what to check next?

Steve

Anyone have some suggestions?

Thanks!

Dirtyhoe ; I never read in your thread as to whether you had the injection pump removed / off or not. When did the white exhaust start showing. Was it like that when you got the machine ?

Tinkerer,
For diagnostic purposes I wanted to clarify I did not tamper with the pump since I have owned it. I just pulled off the window plate to inspect the timing and I cleaned the small filter on the inlet of the pump. A little white smoke was present when I purchased it. It is now worse. Unfortunately, the overall machine was in poor condition so I have not been able to put it to use excavating. I've spent the past year just making repairs/ maintenance so it doesn't break down on my property.

Steve

Steve ; I missed it but you did say in your first post that you didn't remove the pump . It is time to pull the injectors and have them pop tested.
Do you have the service manual for your 580CK ?

rwoody said:

bump that timing up 2-3 degrees and see what goes on

in the military we always scribed a mark on timing cover and pump and moved the pump 1/16 to one way or there to make them better

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thepumpguysc said:

scribe a line on the pump mounting flange & one on the block..
Rotate the pump towards the outside of the tractor about a dimes width & tighten back up.. & see what that does.. DO NOT run the tractor w/ the pump loose.!!

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I moved the pump a little bit today. I could see the remnants of old marks on the pump and the casting, it was actually not lined up, with the pump favoring toward the engine. I moved it just a tiny bit away from the engine. Those nuts that hold the pump tight are ridiculous. How in the world are you supposed to get the one in the back loose? They are so close to the body you can't get anything but a open end wrench on them. Luckily I was able to put some large channel locks on the pump and it moved easier than a thought with just the other two bolts loose.

Started right up as usual, seemed smoother with a little less smoke, and a little less stink. Seems to react to the throttle and the governor a little better also when I dead head a cylinder. Overall it's improved, but there is still a small stream of blue coming out. I think you guys are right, I have a little mechanical issue somewhere in the engine. It must hold a lot of oil or it takes very little to create the smoke, because it still doesn't seem to use any. Thanks for the advice.

bump it a little more bet after running it with load that blue will go away..sounds like slow timing..

Tinkerer said:

Steve ; I missed it but you did say in your first post that you didn't remove the pump . It is time to pull the injectors and have them pop tested.
Do you have the service manual for your 580CK ?

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Yes, I have all of the manuals.
I will check for a misfire too(loosen each injector one at a time) just in case I've missed something.
I don't have a way to check the compression. What is the cheapest way to put this tool together?

Steve

@ franklin2 - On that back nut, which I also found to be a real pain with the typical tools one has on hand, I went digging thru the tool box and found and old Williams 6725B wrench. It's 12 point and only has a slight offset on the ends, and is around 6" overall. When I used this I could still only get 1 point of movement at a time on the nut before hitting the block, but it worked great by comparison and just made the whole ordeal a treat compared to the fun I went thru when taking it off.



If I hadn't found this thing in the the tool box, I was just going to take any 12 point 9/16" with a slight offset, as a straight one will just hit the flange on the front of the block, and hack the other end off it making it around 6" or so, as you'd end up with pretty much the same thing, and it really cut down on the swearing also.

Just get a wrench & some heat & bend it into a wide "U"..
12pt box end..
Once you get the timing where YOU like it.. double check it w/ the flywheel degrees & pump lines in the window.. THAT WAY, you'll know FOR SURE what the timing is...
Just to clarify, that 0* & 8* do not take into consideration, gear train wear..

thepumpguysc said:

Once you get the timing where YOU like it.. double check it w/ the flywheel degrees & pump lines in the window.. THAT WAY, you'll know FOR SURE what the timing is...
Just to clarify, that 0* & 8* do not take into consideration, gear train wear..

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For sure pumpguysc ! I would be curious to see timing marks lined up, and then how far he could rotate the crankshaft back and forth before they moved.

Tinkerer,
I opened up the fuel line connection on each injector one at a time. #1 cylinder(closest to the fan) barely made the engine misfire. The remaining 3 made a noticeable change in the way the engine responded to no fuel. So I"m guessing my problem is with #1? Does this mean it's the injector or something worse like piston rings?
How do I rig up a compression test gauge without spending a lot of money?

Thanks,
Steve

You can buy a whole set of injectors online cheaper than getting the tools to do a compr. test.. about 30.-40.00 apiece.. aftermarket injectors. IF your going to replace 1.. replace ALL of them.. they ALL have the same amount of time on them & the SAME fuel run thru them..
You HAVE TO use a diesel compression gauge.. a GASOLINE gauge wont work.. the diesel compression is over 300psi & a gas gauge only goes up to 200 and theres a STRONG possibility that it will explode.
IF you have an old injector laying around, you can take the guts out of it, grind the tip off & use that for a compr. tester.. you'll have to braze/weld a fitting on it to adapt to the gauge tho..
OR buy the kit from Harbor Freight.. They sell 2 different kits..
OR try to rent one from the local parts store..
OR just swap #1 injector w/ #4 & see if the fault follows the injector.. IF IT DOES, just get a new set..

With you having smoke and that #1 injector not changing how the engine runs much, it sounds a bit like an issue with that cylinder not having enough compression, rings, valves, the sleeve, so then the fuel from it is just getting burnt up in the exhaust. It could also be the injector has failed and is dumping the fuel in there at the wrong time too.

Do a swap of the #1 injector with any of the others like TPG suggested and crack all of the lines again, see if the issue moves with the injector. That engine's compression should be around 400psi while cranking and 480psi when running, thou after who knows how many years or decades on those sleeves and rings it could be anything, so if you get a gauge make sure it can handle at the very least 500psi max, preferably you'd want one that is rated to 1000psi to be safe.

The HF gauge goes up to 1000psi. I cant remember a time I've gotten mine over 400.. lol
350-340-350-92.. is USUALLY how it goes..
All you can do is swap the injectors & hope for the best.. we're rootin for ya..

I'll get to it this weekend and let you know what I find out.
TPG, do you have a source for good quality $30-40 injectors? I don't want to buy junk like my aftermarket water pump I had to throw away. Some of the recommend online stores that were mentioned the other day on my other post about aftermarket parts want over $100 each.

Thanks for all the advise!

I only use OEM but it sounded like you were on a budget.. just google> 580c pencil injectors..

Here are the results from the compression test:

1. Cylinder #1(next to fan) 335PSI...With oil added(1 tablespoon) per service manual 415PSI
2. Cylinder #2 370PSI with oil 460PSI
3. Cylinder #3 370PSI with oil 465PSI
4. Cylinder #4 360PSI with oil 450PSI

****Service manual says it should be 400PSI with no more than 25PSI difference between cylinders.


Observations:
Swapping injectors from #2 to #1 made a slight improvement.
Battery was fully charged and seemed to spin motor fast.
No debris on diesel return line so I think nothing is coming apart in the FP.
All injectors had soot on the nozzle. No visual differences between all four.
After putting it back together no change in the amount of smoke.


Questions:

1. Why does it start so easy? After disconnecting all the fuel pressure and return lines it started right up with no priming.
2. Should I have the injectors tested?
3. Do I need to rebuild the engine?
4. How much power will I loose if I do not make repairs?
5. Will I have a catastrophic failure in the near future if I do nothing?

Thanks in advance,
Steve

Steve I'm not all that qualified to give sound advice but when a diesel starts like yours it's a sign of good compression and a little vapor out of the breather and oil fill tube isn't unusual. No one from what you've described could make a call that without nothing done may result in catastrophic failure. I replaced all the injectors on the same machine as yours once because I thought it ran a little ruff OME $54 each at the time and all I did was waste a couple 100 bucks because it didn't make a bit of difference that was noticeable.

1 - It starts so easy because you still have enough fuel and compression for it, which are all it really needs.

2 - Having them pop tested isn't a bad idea, but it obviously has a slight compression issue on #1 there.

3 - That's roughly a 30~50psi difference between cylinders, and 30 or so psi under the books spec, and going from the manual that's a bit off the allowed difference you want to see between cylinders, but it's also not a horrible difference that points to it needing immediate attention. It is close to a 4 decade old machine, and depending on what all was done to it over those years, that could be just the start of the engine showing the rings and/or sleeves need to be replaced.

Sooner or later that's really only going to get worse and need some attention, but I personally wouldn't put it in the 'needs done right now' category, depending on how much you plan to use the machine. If you plan to run it hours a day, for days on end, for months at a time, you may want to get in there now and do something about it, like an in frame overhaul and really go over or have the head checked out as well, but if it's just getting used here and there, then I wouldn't be overly concerned with those readings for now, but do plan on either an in frame or pulled overhaul some time down the road.

4 - Any power that's lost is already lost, but putting a number on that isn't really easy. If #1 was dead or had very little compression you'd notice it for sure, as the engine would then have to lug all that dead weight around.

5 - Doubtful, but if you're keen, you still pay attention to walking behind any horse that's never kicked you before either. That is to say that a little low compression reading doesn't really tell you much, and it for sure doesn't mean that the #3 rod couldn't just up and snap at some point and come flying thru the block. So just keep your eyes and ears open for any changes in how she sounds or feels, since you know best how it sounds and feels now, as that, aside form doing compression checks and tearing things apart to see what's going on in there, will be your best indicators.