I think this is concerning

Yair . . .

This may be of interest . . . how far can this go?

https://www.wired.com/2015/04/dmca-ownership-john-deere/

Cheers.

thats been around for a long time now, more and more companies are going to jump on the bandwagon to MAKE you goto an authorized dealer to get anything that has a computer chip or part to get repaired or face big fines if you hack into their computer systems...now this is just the beginning..do you want to hot rod a truck or car?? not anymore if you arent authorized to touch their software...more of big brother watching and controlling you..

So if a machine breaks down due to computer failure during harvesting and the tech can't get there in a timely manner to do the fix and the weather turns to $hit and the crop s ruined, is the manufacture liable for loss of income? If not they should be as they "own" the product that failed.

Yair . . .
Bloody hell Tones, you're a mind reader!! I was to about to propose exactly that scenario.

I had it in a word document and was about to copy and paste it into here.

I just can't get my head around manufacturers being able to sell machinery and not transfer to the buyer "all rights" and complete technical details and instructions as how to trouble shoot and repair.

Cheers.

Blame it on IBM, Bill Gates, and lots of shank-ass lawyers.

Even further, what happens when a manufacturer considers a part/machine 'obsolete' and no longer supports it?

I have a perfectly good Volvo here that they consider obsolete and can't supply many parts for and don't want to release the control board schematics so I can fix it. Now what? Dealer actually told me, "well we have some great financing on new machines now".

Sure, if I was doing cost plus gov't work I'd just order up some new machines with service contracts, but I'm not. Besides I'm a cheap old buzzard and hate chucking things just because some text book engineer says it has exceeded its expected life. My 1932 irrigation pump with a flathead 6 has been moving water just fine for over 80 years. I don't consider anything obsolete until it rusts into the ground. And if I paint it - it won't.

Got a very nice low mileage VW tdi, needs a computer. VW says no gots. Used one is a crap shoot at $800 bucks. Why not release the schematics and let aftermarket make them?

You want to own it? Fine. Ship a mechanic and parts truck with each machine. I've got a 6 week "make money" season each spring and can't be waiting days/weeks around for you to fix what I could in hours.

Gotta love this planned obsolescence garbage.

Here is a later entry into that debate but the same author a week or two later. I'm doing a little research on the subject and will post as I find out more.

http://ifixit.org/blog/7192/john-deere-mess/

Here is a more balanced article on the issue from Equipment World Magazine. Keep in mind these guy make their money on advertising products made by the manufacturers.

http://www.equipmentworld.com/ownership-and-machine-software/

This is the most recent article I have found so far. It apparently was written this year.

http://ifixit.org/blog/8722/dmca-hurts-jobs/

This is the link to the software agreement John Deere will require a purchaser to sign.

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2016/12/john-deere-really-doesnt-want-you-own-tractor

I found a link to the copyright ruling apparently done this year. The link is below and you have to scroll down to page 39. The thought process and ruling conclude on page 44. My interpretation is that an owner has the right to open up the locks on the software for purposes of operation, repair or modification as long as such manipulation does not cause the machine to violate any applicable laws such as emissions or safety protections. The is likely the reason John Deere implemented the software agreement on purchase of a machine.


https://www.copyright.gov/1201/2015/fedreg-publicinspectionFR.pdf

In reality, unless you had to have the machine inspected or had to take it to a dealer, how would they ever know? Disconnect any product link features, or stop paying for them, and you should be good to go.

Yeah , few years back local John Deere dealer owners got in a little trouble & ended up loosing the dealership .

These guys along with the JD dealership also farmed pretty big .
Problem was the inventory sheets did not match what they actually had on the lot .
Someone from the company started investigating and through the GPS system found the missing tractors pretty quick ........ On the JD dealers farm . LOL !
Goodbye to the corrupt & there nonsense .
I knew there was a reason I stayed with Minneapolis-Moline

The issue I think is if there were a problem Deere was claiming you didn't have the right to do it yourself and they would use the Copyright Act to file suit. Unhook the product link and the machine is dead?

the software is so heavily embedded with programs to spy and collect info on you, you will never find them in the programing, just more of big brother watching..

I think it goes deeper than you think. A company like John Deere can, through the software and its wireless link back to the factory, obtain a lot of data from your farm regarding implement use, fertiliser use & type, pesticide/herbicide use and type, fuel use and so on.
They can then sell this valuable data to third parties in the agricultural industry for a tidy sum. What you then get is a lot of marketing directed at you from the data you unwittingly supplied but don't own. You are becoming a fantastic profit centre for John Deere and the like but all you get is your rights to use the equipment as you see fit taken away.
I'd be supporting what ifixit is doing to retain the rights to repair and alter the equipment you have purchased. This is going to get a lot worse for us end users if we don't stand up. And of course most heavy equipment manufacturers think like John Deere.

AusDave

I spoke to a computer geek mate of mine today and he very sure the copyright laws in the US don't apply here in OZ. With that said anyone here who hacked a puter and fixed it would be OK was far Australian Law is concerned. He mentioned a legal test case which would cover it.
I am sad for any buyers of new equipment in the US that may have to go through this crap

Tones said:

I spoke to a computer geek mate of mine today and he very sure the copyright laws in the US don't apply here in OZ. With that said anyone here who hacked a puter and fixed it would be OK was far Australian Law is concerned. He mentioned a legal test case which would cover it.
I am sad for any buyers of new equipment in the US that may have to go through this crap

Click to expand...

I hope any Aussies who do so post the details all over the internet.

Tones said:

I spoke to a computer geek mate of mine today and he very sure the copyright laws in the US don't apply here in OZ. With that said anyone here who hacked a puter and fixed it would be OK was far Australian Law is concerned. He mentioned a legal test case which would cover it.
I am sad for any buyers of new equipment in the US that may have to go through this crap

Click to expand...

If US copyright laws don't apply in Australia why do we have some of the most restrictive laws regarding movies from the likes of Hollywood? We don't even have fair usage rights as many other countries do. Movies, software, whatever, if we want to use it we have to accept highly restrictive copyright agreements otherwise you can't have it. Sure you may be able to hack the computer on a Deere, Cat etc but I'll bet if you went to get it repaired by an authorised dealer/or other authorised repairer they probably wouldn't be able to/refuse to work on the machine with their diagnostic gear leaving you potentially stranded with an inoperable machine.
It's also not hard for an OEM to place traps through the software/firmware so that if you did try to hack or repair it you trigger the trap immobilising the whole electronics package. Unless you have legislated rights by law, the manufacturers hold all the cards in the long run. The integration of the whole machine engine, trans, hydraulics, HVAC into the ECU on equipment nowadays really makes it hard to hack anyway if you don't have even the most basic info/codes to begin with.

With the current imbalance in favour of the manufacturer over the profit centre, I mean customer, (wry smile), things can only get potentially worse creating a class of machine operating serfs

Sorry to sound so negative but the way it's going doesn't look good to me. It's not like computerisation and networking are intrinsically bad, they have many advantages in control and efficiency. Look at GPS and where we would be if the military didn't allow access to this technology. As a matter of fact GPS is a good example of making a technology open and accessible to all and not excessively locked down.
Needless to say most of my machinery and vehicles have no or minimal electronics and I can repair it myself or find a reasonable mechanic who can.

It would be great to open source the software and hardware ECU side of things, though the temptation to bypass emission control would be hard to avoid. Hopefully when we are using battery electric machinery, this gripe will be a thing of the past as the range of issues with control electric motors and their peripherals is much more suited to open source programmers doing a better job than OEMs. At a minimum, give owners the legal right to at least repair to factory specs by providing the necessary info.

Sorry for the lengthy post, I think this issue is going to become bigger though, AusDave

John Deere is putting WAY more time and effort into computer & electronics development and legal strategy than building good tractors.

I've sold Deere...have never been a Deere guy, and right now they've got IMHO some of the worst equipment on the market. I won't buy one, won't sell one.

When I worked in the IT space most people didn't realize with boxes like servers and even routers and switches...they legally could not resell the unit with software. Cisco would make you buy a new license if you were not the original purchaser of the equipment before they would give any tech support. Legally they could trace back and disable any used Cisco boxes if they had the time / felt it was a worth while effort. They don't because of the push back it would generate.

I could see a day in the not to distant future where a used tractor buyer would need a new software license before a dealer would repair it. And unlike routers and switches that are fairly bullet proof, good luck getting a newer Deere to run for more than 6 months without support.

BTW, that Equipment World article is laughable.

A decade ago I would occasionally hear grumbling from some contractors about having to buy or lease software to do diagnostic test on machines. But with the rapid emergence of telematics data that argument seems to have vanished. Integrated into the software that controls the machines, the telematics systems today will often give you early warning of potential problems and thus prevent catastrophic and expensive failures.

Oh yea, all my customers LOVE the electronics. They're tickled with all the new equipment's electronics. It's why more and more are leasing new tractors (which is IMHO bad on many levels as well) with full warranty.

But we are getting away from an ownership society and new emissions / electronics are a big part of that...that's a very bad thing as a free society. It basically becomes an indentured society where no one is ever free. I'll pass.

These leases that are taking over the market are IMHO very short sighted. Too many manufactures are driven by 'market share' (Deere started that mess as well) but no one is looking at the fall out when all these used tractors show up on lots.