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Twin Steer or Reverse Steer Tag or Ideas?

crane operator

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Mar 27, 2009
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Bulldog lift his leg on you?

Judging from what td's using for his cardboard on his template- he doesn't need the bulldog to do it.

td template 2.jpg

and no- I don't think incontinence is funny- I just think rzuker's post and td's picture made me smile so I thought I'd share :p. I don't want to offend anyone- if this bothers someone please delete, but I try to laugh at life's little foibles and troubles. My grandpa said getting old isn't for sissies.
 
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crane operator

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Back on topic though- I've never seen the reamers you guys are using, so I learned something, thanks for posting those. One more item for the toolkit.
 

CM1995

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Running what I brung and taking what I win
Lumberjack you're on to something with your method. Take a tree down with no climbers and only one guy running a remote control..;)

With the speed, efficiency and lower WC rates since you don't have a climber, buy a grapple truck with a huge body to haul away the debris and rock and roll.
 

lumberjack

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If your moving the rear tandems forward or aft measure off an old existing bolt hole along the frame that held the Mack trunnion sub frame to index the new hole locations .

Fancy way of sayin measure off the old bolt holes on each side . :)

Haha I would steam clean it if I was working on it. I have a couple small hydraulic leaks that have made a minor mess.


I knew you'd measure off the old holes, I didn't know if there was adjusters built into the design or if it was just where you bolt it.

Car Reamers will cut more holes at a faster speed using lots of [cutting oil} than drills. Plus the hole is smoother than drilling and less prone for a crack to start. A 1/2" reamer will fly
right through hard A$$ frame rail.

Truck Shop


Good point on the stress risers!


Lumberjack you're on to something with your method. Take a tree down with no climbers and only one guy running a remote control..;)

With the speed, efficiency and lower WC rates since you don't have a climber, buy a grapple truck with a huge body to haul away the debris and rock and roll.


Good idea!

IMG_4200.JPG
 

td25c

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Haha I would steam clean it if I was working on it. I have a couple small hydraulic leaks that have made a minor mess.


I knew you'd measure off the old holes, I didn't know if there was adjusters built into the design or if it was just where you bolt it.
]
Yes , just measure off the old bolt holes . It will be OK !
 

RZucker

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Car Reamers will cut more holes at a faster speed using lots of [cutting oil} than drills. Plus the hole is smoother than drilling and less prone for a crack to start. A 1/2" reamer will fly
right through hard A$$ frame rail.

Truck Shop
Yep, I run my reamers with a huge old Black and Decker or an equally old Milwaukee 1/2" drill motor, a good grip on both handles is all it takes. For the lube I use Ridgid thread cutting oil. Kar products had a foaming reamer oil that worked well too. I just haven't seen the Kar guy for a while.
 

lumberjack

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Got this from the engineering today. I asked if I could put the tag axle as far back as possible and put a 5th axle in front of the tandems, it shouldn't be a problem. 17" farther back gets me an extra 1klbs on bridge law, the ICC bar may have to be moved... it'll be close with the tires turned.


Screen Shot 2017-03-28 at 7.49.16 PM.png

Perhaps this chart will make better sense to someone other than me. I can't understand why we would put a tag to lower max axle weights and end up with a steer axle only 1100lbs lighter with the tag axle down, hence the 5th axle being a pusher.

Screen Shot 2017-03-28 at 7.58.18 PM.png



Couple pictures from today:
2017-03-28 14.04.53-1.jpg
2017-03-28 14.57.58 HDR.jpg
 

Junkyard

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The tag axle being that far from the front I'm surprised it removes any steer axle weight at all. If I had to do one or the other I'd do a pusher first to lighten the steer up. I had a heavy haul truck with a tag and with my 5th wheel in the right spot I could air the tag up and actually PUT weight on the steer. Drives acted like a fulcrum I guess you could say.

A steerable pusher and tag would be ideal in my opinion. Gentle axle loads, good maneuverability and payload as well.

Junkyard
 

lumberjack

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The tag axle puts weight on the steer because as you say the drives are the fulcrum. The drawing moves the drives 54" forward, which takes 4500lbs off the steer. The weight of the raised tag takes the other 600lbs off. Putting the tag axle down takes weight off the drives and puts it back on the steer.


My theory is move the drives forward and install two axles at the same time. While we're at it, install the plumbing for an air braked trailer. It's just money, right? :eek: If I can get the tag axle 17" farther back and install the 5th axle, I should have ~11klbs of bridgeable payload.
 

Junkyard

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Sounds like a reasonable course of action to me. It's a slick truck for what you're doing. I like new ways to do old things!

Junkyard
 

td25c

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The tag axle puts weight on the steer because as you say the drives are the fulcrum. The drawing moves the drives 54" forward, which takes 4500lbs off the steer. The weight of the raised tag takes the other 600lbs off. Putting the tag axle down takes weight off the drives and puts it back on the steer.

Absolutely ! Good point Junkyard about the rear mount tag axil acting as a fulcrum .

I like that setup moving the tandems forward & installing a rear tag to balance out the load on the road . Keep in mind you can " feather " & adjust air pressure accordingly as need be . Might only take 45 psi on the rear tag to equalize out the axil weights . Just have to experiment with it to find the " sweet spot " .
Then when off road you can dump the tag air putting more weight on the drive axils to gain traction if need be .

The original issue was a heavy steering axil & light rear axils , Correct ?

Only way I know to solve it is either remove counterweight built in to the front bumper & headboard ???
Or move the rear tandems forward to help offset it ???
 

crane operator

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I'll just throw this out there for you also, lumberjack. I find a very important figure is: how far the rear (tag) axle comes off the ground, when unloaded (air up). I quite often pull my lower pin on my rear tag, so the axle can fully ride up, for example when coming off a road up a steep driveway. If that tag axle hits the ground in that situation (without enough clearance), you can pick your drives off the ground and be spun out, point loaded between your front (steer), and the rear tag axle. The further the tag is from the drives, the higher it has to come off the ground.

Smaller tires on the tag would help. Making it a pin on behind the crane would be more helpful, but remove the possibility of a trailer (even if it doesn't unpin like mine, you would have more room for the tires to come up when raised without the crane above it).

Maybe you could extend the frame behind the crane enough for the tag tires to come up behind the crane, and have the frame extension there also for the trailer hitch, also gaining you length for bridge. Maybe not moving the drives quite so far ahead then, and leaving room for the pusher?

You only want to move those drives once, and then only if you have to, so those paper calculations are way easier to do than moving axles around. I was just a little concerned when looking at the drawing, at how much rise you would get from a tag placed under the crane, vs behind the crane. The crane above really limits how high the tag can raise up.

Without my bottom pin being removed on my tag, as far back as my rear tag's sit on both my larger cranes, I know I could get in trouble in a hurry. I can hear in the cab when my rear tag hits the ground, in the up position and rides up with the pin pulled, and its quite often on rough terrain.

I do like the idea of moving the drives ahead, I think the nicest part of that will be improved turning radius.

Can they run a calculation for you on where you would be with just a pusher ahead of the tandems, but leaving the tandems where they are? and see what that does to your front axle loads. I also think pusher first and then tag will give you the most gain on your steer weight issue.

I did own a crane like that once- single steer, pusher, tandems,(no tag) and with just adjusting air, pull weight on and off the steer.


I don't think I ever saw what rear suspension you have on the truck, if it is a camelback spring or spring over walking beam, the air axles, as tag and pusher will make a huge difference in how it rides, taking a lot of bounce out of it. I can really notice on my truck cranes if I don't have them aired up. (both cranes are simple walking beams rear- no springs).
 
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lumberjack

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The truck has a camelback spring rear suspension. I can run the calculations putting/moving axles wherever.


The thought of an even shorter turning radius is inviting; the thought of being stuck on the steer and tag doesn't sound awesome and it seems like a good way to damage the tag axle. I could fairly easily remove the tires from the tag axle for increased ground clearance, but I would still be giving up a considerable amount of departure angle moving the drives forward.

Moving the drives forward and adding a pusher requires the same relocating that adding two pushers entails. Installing two axles is cheaper than moving the drives and installing two axles.

Adding a tag would allow me to stretch my overall wheelbase to 25', picking up 1klbs of legal payload.

Weight added in front of the rear outriggers adds to stability reaching over the rear. Adding two pushers or a pusher and a tag could make the front bumper weight decrease by 1400-1600lbs.


Possible consensuses:
Leave Drives as is, install two pushers.

Benefits:
  1. Cheaper than moving the drive axles.
  2. Substantially less down time.
  3. Better departure angle.
  4. Better ride.


Move drives forward, install pusher and tag.
Like Crane Operator said, maybe move the drives forward ~31" and set the tag 48" behind them and a pusher in front by the outrigger box. That will reduce the load the tag shifts to the steer (and pusher), preserve some departure angle, and increase the bridge to 24.5' (round up to 25').

Benefits:
  1. Reduced turning radius.
  2. Better break-over angle.
  3. 1klbs more bridgeable gross weight.
  4. Potentially better control of weight transfer with the pusher/tag.

Install one pusher, decide what to do later.
Benefits:
  1. Least amount of downtime.
  2. Cheapest
  3. Doesn't change the ability to do either other option... the front pusher is as far forward as practical in both of the above scenarios.
  4. May "get me by" for quite some time, possibly even longer.
  5. Can drop 900lb of front bumper weight, if I wanted.
 
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lumberjack

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Assuming 4500lb for the drives, lift axles having an installed weight of 1600lb, and the front bumper weighs 1900lb.

Installing two pushers, one at the fuel tank and one 4' in front of the drives, I would need 434lb at the front bumper.

Installing one tag 17" back from the current drives, moving the drives 31" forward, and installing a pusher at the fuel tank, I would need 554lbs at the front bumper. If the drives weigh 5klbs the weight drops to 512lb.

If the lift axles weigh 1800lb installed, the numbers drop to 251lb and 391lb respectively.

If I wanted to put the weight on the headboard vs the front bumper, the required weight increases by 36%.
 

lumberjack

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Update, I'm still waiting on Watson & Chalin to supply the part numbers for us to order the axle. It looks like I'll have to yank some chains to get them to generate the numbers... the hard work (technical) is already done!


Here's two of nine trees I took out Thursday with the truck. The driveway at the second tree was in bad shape, so I wasn't worried about cracking it.

 

fast_st

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That's one fantastic tool! a little nintendo and a little chainsaw work.
 

hvy 1ton

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Really cool video lumberjack. I'd love to have one just big enough to trim back the trees along the creeks and fence rows. Would save a me a lot time on a pole saw.
 

lumberjack

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Another video using the ~46 yard dump trailer I bought to go behind the crane. 15klb air brake axles, twin telescoping cylinders for the dump hoist.
 
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