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Studying improving experience for repairing machines

Brodiesel

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Winnemucca, NV
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My wife makes all the $$$.
I think there might have been—the approach we wanted to explore was how we could describe any part on the machine in as few a questions as possible. Whether by starting with general location, and drilling down to material or something like that we would be able to identify a bolt here, or a washer there. Sorry to be a complete noob, but would you mind explaining the alpha, sectional and major group/component searches and how they work—is this done by assembly and sub-assembly in a physical manual?

Tom y
I think there might have been—the approach we wanted to explore was how we could describe any part on the machine in as few a questions as possible. Whether by starting with general location, and drilling down to material or something like that we would be able to identify a bolt here, or a washer there. Sorry to be a complete noob, but would you mind explaining the alpha, sectional and major group/component searches and how they work—is this done by assembly and sub-assembly in a physical manual?

Tom, most OEMs offer some type of free access to there parts systems. CAT, JOHN DEERE, AND CUMMINS all let customers use their parts systems, which makes sense as a customer, I mean why call the parts counter and ask help finding something when you can find it yourself then order it? It saves times and money on both ends, problem is its eliminating some jobs too.

So, just look up all those OEMs and make accounts. Then you can actually see how the parts searches work. Most of it is stuck in the 90's in terms of layout and user friendliness. CAT is making moves and doing alot of 3D type color images for parts and diagrams now so thats really cool, but all the sites need a makeover in my opinion.
 

thepumpguysc

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Master Inj.Pump rebuilder
AMEN to that wrench.. If I had a dollar for every time an engineer told me, "it cant be done, like that" I'd be rich.!!
Then I proceeded to fix the problem, "that couldn't be done" LIKE THAT..
I saved 1 manufacture million if not billions of dollars, after they came out w/ a "procedure" to fix a problem under warranty..
THEY ended up rewriting the "procedure" to incorporate MY fix..
HERO?? dam right.. lol
THEY probably got a promotion & a fat bonus.. I got more work and LESS TIME to do it in..!!! Life isn't fair.. lol
 

tom_groom

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Joined
Feb 21, 2017
Messages
15
Location
Chicago
Tom y


Tom, most OEMs offer some type of free access to there parts systems. CAT, JOHN DEERE, AND CUMMINS all let customers use their parts systems, which makes sense as a customer, I mean why call the parts counter and ask help finding something when you can find it yourself then order it? It saves times and money on both ends, problem is its eliminating some jobs too.

So, just look up all those OEMs and make accounts. Then you can actually see how the parts searches work. Most of it is stuck in the 90's in terms of layout and user friendliness. CAT is making moves and doing alot of 3D type color images for parts and diagrams now so thats really cool, but all the sites need a makeover in my opinion.
Couldn't agree more—have seen the back end of some of this stuff and it is SO out of touch and the least user friendly ever!
 

tom_groom

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Feb 21, 2017
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Chicago
Quick Question— in response to this https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/mar/06/nebraska-farmers-right-to-repair-john-deere-apple

(And not wishing anyone to incriminate themselves/void warranties) anyone ever "hack" a machine (sorry for using the word hack—i'm using it in a broad was to really mean change something to use it in the way it wasn't intended/disable or enable features).. Well, so to switch off alarms or take some control back in to the hand of owners/mechanics—anyone ever do this (or are we all by the book here?)
 

Delmer

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Jan 3, 2013
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WI
The most obvious example is "tuners" or chips for removing the emissions carp from diesel engines. The EPA is cracking down on the companies that advertise these products and services. I can't believe that you can't order them from china yet for any application you want. The transmissions aren't any harder, I think there is a market that small ambiguous offshore companies could easily fill.

There was a question about reverse engineering something similar recently, unfortunately the guy never followed up, I think he had a real shot at making it work.
 

Jim D

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Nov 11, 2012
Messages
408
Location
California
Occupation
equipment operator
Tom G,

My big point is that a manual should describe, and picture or illustrate, the *difficult* and the *unexpected* points and parts in servicing and repairing a machine. Wasting illustrations or photo plates on all of the ordinary things is very stupid. Don't need a photo of flange bolts, or case bolts, with the instruction to undo them...

Factory people should not design a service manual. You should take an experienced brand/line service technician, have him disassemble a new machine, and you should take note of when and where he is stymied; those novel and unexpected things or operations are the steps that a service manual need to elaborate upon.

And *ALWAYS* check, afterwards, that the instructions actually are correct. I just disassembled the PTO gear box on a tractor. The instructions said 'undo the case bolts and lift off the top half of the case'. When I tried to do so, the top half of the case could not be removed! It was hung on something inside of it. A study of the illustration in the manual of the 'after-the-top-half-is-removed' picture of the PTO clutch and gears, showed the PTO clutch selector/actuator fork still attached to the PTO clutch, with the top half of the case removed. The selector fork pivots on the top-part-of-the-case-that-is-supposed-to-be-lifted-off, and the external clutch lever penetrates and pivots in the same/said top part of the case... The top part of the case *cannot* be removed until the outside lever, on one side, and the pivot bolt boss, on the other side, are removed. The service manual *completely* missed and omitted that step!!
 
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thepumpguysc

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Jim D is right about that.. I attended a FACTORY refresher course to keep my certs..
The instructor was showing a slide show OF THE PROCEDURE while we were doing the procedures..
ALMOST EVERY procedure was wrong.. and I would call him on it.. & this was a FACTORY training class..
He made notes.. I doubt anything was changed..
 

Hobbytime

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Sep 21, 2016
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Quick Question— in response to this https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/mar/06/nebraska-farmers-right-to-repair-john-deere-apple

(And not wishing anyone to incriminate themselves/void warranties) anyone ever "hack" a machine (sorry for using the word hack—i'm using it in a broad was to really mean change something to use it in the way it wasn't intended/disable or enable features).. Well, so to switch off alarms or take some control back in to the hand of owners/mechanics—anyone ever do this (or are we all by the book here?)
honstly from your posts, im gona question what your real intention is?? sounds like you are a spy from some manufacture to see whats going on so the company can close some loopholes on service and parts monopoly..just my opinion from what your putting out there..and now asking if anyone is breaking the law by hacking into computer systems on equipment...??? gota raise the hairs on the backs of others necks that are reading your threads and posts....
 

check

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in the mail
honstly from your posts, im gona question what your real intention is?? sounds like you are a spy from some manufacture to see whats going on so the company can close some loopholes on service and parts monopoly..just my opinion from what your putting out there..and now asking if anyone is breaking the law by hacking into computer systems on equipment...??? gota raise the hairs on the backs of others necks that are reading your threads and posts....
Frankly, I don't mind if someone's intention is to circumvent planned-in obsolescence or circumvent laws that should never have been written. Anything that gives owners of trucks and equipment more control over their expensive purchases is a good thing, even if it gives manufacturers and the feds less control suits me just fine.
 

partsandservice

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Here is my take on the equip the manufacturer holding the programming proprietary. Farmers ,loggers , dirt movers ecu.. don't need to hack in and rewrite code or reprogram ecu and Tcu. Code displays amd descriptions ,wiring diagrams, and a quality volt meter all that is needed to diagnose and repair most issues. With those things I would think I could get that alarm issue resolved on his case, or determine if it is in fact a module internal fault( now the dealership steps in). Problem is often the dealer tech is going to skip the basics and spend hours fiddling with his lab top hoping it is going to tell him fix it inst of checking all the connectors in the circuit and checking for chafing in the harness.
 

Birken Vogt

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Here is my take on the equip the manufacturer holding the programming proprietary. Farmers ,loggers , dirt movers ecu.. don't need to hack in and rewrite code or reprogram ecu and Tcu. Code displays amd descriptions ,wiring diagrams, and a quality volt meter all that is needed to diagnose and repair most issues. With those things I would think I could get that alarm issue resolved on his case, or determine if it is in fact a module internal fault( now the dealership steps in). Problem is often the dealer tech is going to skip the basics and spend hours fiddling with his lab top hoping it is going to tell him fix it inst of checking all the connectors in the circuit and checking for chafing in the harness.

I used to think this, but in my business (generators) there are now far, far too many gross ECM failures and the manufacturer offers no concession. They have increased the level of complexity (cost) without increasing the level of reliability and the warranty is very short. So the customer gets stuck with a huge bill because a tiny part of a very expensive module failed and the whole thing has to be replaced. Or now reflashed, dealer only, customer expense to cover their original mistake.

You know they know good and well this is happening because of the frequent hardware and software revisions and the amount of these modules they must be selling over the counter and under warranty.

The good news is in this age of information small operators and customers are going to get wise and the brands are going to suffer. Let's hope they can figure out why and change their ways, or better options become available (there are several up and comers in my market making good products).
 

John C.

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I suppose holding the programing of engine in particular and machines in general would be something I would be leery about letting just any Tom, Dick and Harry have access to, particularly if I had just spent millions of dollars building it. The other specter is the government regulations I had to comply with and could come back and hold me civilly and possibly criminally liable for something someone else did to my programs. But I don't think that is the real issue at hand.

If I spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a machine that I'm basing my economic future on I would expect the kinds of information that would allow me to keep the machine operating as it was marketed to do. If a module goes bad while my combine is harvesting and it shuts down the machine I would expect something in the program to tell me what I have to do to get the machine running again. As the scenario is stated earlier in this thread, that is not happening. Apparently the dealer is notified, by some kind of telematics, who then has to come and replace a part and the owner apparently doesn't have the right to fix his own machine. The owner apparently doesn't have the right to change that module???

That sounds to me like the dealer has inserted themselves as a guarantor of the operation of that machine and by proxy at least partially responsible for the profit on the sale of that crop. The insurance industry calls this co-insurance. The way it works is if you don't insure the value of an asset against loss for its full value and you has a loss, you are then on the hook for the percentage that you underinsured. Applying that to the combine then if it is established that it takes 8 hours to harvest a field and with the down machine it now takes 20 hours and a percentage of the crop is lost because of a weather event or something else, wouldn't the dealer and manufacturer be on the hook for at least part of that loss?

I don't think it would take much of a farmer's association of some kind to be able to apply that kind of pressure to the manufacturers to pry something loose.
 

Hobbytime

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Frankly, I don't mind if someone's intention is to circumvent planned-in obsolescence or circumvent laws that should never have been written. Anything that gives owners of trucks and equipment more control over their expensive purchases is a good thing, even if it gives manufacturers and the feds less control suits me just fine.
your missing my point, I personally have no issue with fixing it yourself and saving $$ and if you have to access the computer thats fine, my point was that toom-groom may not be who he says and is waiting for people to admit they tampered with protected equipment..thats all, nothing more nothing less..just my opinion..
 

funwithfuel

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I don't know if Deere is shutting you down for worn out muffler bearings but Fed EPA sure is. You got a slightly high water to urea content in yer DEF, guess what, youre gonna be done in short order. The EPA mandates that if ANYTHING is tampered with or signals from sensors are out of range or missing, you're down. Aftertreatment has nothing to do with if your engine is ok. Its about whether or not you're hurting the environment.
 

funwithfuel

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Oohhhh what hobbytime said. He could be a EPA jag trying to hang someone who might foolishly admit they tweeked software or deleted an egr or any other host of heinous crimes against the environment
 

funwithfuel

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Back to tom_grooms original query, nomenclature. That is your biggest enemy. Cat has SIS Volvo has Prosis and Navistar has ISIS . I'm sure they're all bastardised versions of the same system. On the volvo side , manuals were translated into several languages from several other languages. You have all these translations where someone may not have the same word or meaning , they're like uuhhh, I'll make something up. Sometime they luck out, more often, not.
 

check

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your missing my point, I personally have no issue with fixing it yourself and saving $$ and if you have to access the computer thats fine, my point was that toom-groom may not be who he says and is waiting for people to admit they tampered with protected equipment..thats all, nothing more nothing less..just my opinion..
Sorry. I misunderstood. Although I don't think TG is an agent as such, it sure wouldn't be the first time something like that happened on an internet forum.
The best way to deal with that, IMO, is to describe the methods yet never claim to have done it.
 

partsandservice

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Birken, I see very little module failure in my little slice. It is almost always a wire or connector. Maybe two or three ecu failures a year and they are usually self induced, jump cables hooked up backwards or short in harness. Some are chalked up to lightning when there is no other explanation.
 

Birken Vogt

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I have had my share of customer induced failures but when you are paying a thousand dollars or more for a module, those are things that should be protected against, at least reverse voltage should.

I have been working on 2 way radios longer than equipment. Inside they are about the same idea. You can hook a radio up backwards and usually the external fuse is all that fails. Replace, back in business. Sometimes you have to replace an internal diode or fuse near the input, no big deal. I can't recall one that was totally fried.

But ECUs are toast when all it would take was a little protection circuitry. These things are way too delicate. Shorted outputs, that would be able to be protected against too if you really wanted to.

This stuff needs to be built with the same level of fault tolerance as before it was computerized. It is not hard, or unknown how to do this. Jumper cables, welding, alternator stuck full field, all this will happen from time to time. They need to deal with it.

But spontaneous breakage is a bigger problem in my segment.
 
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