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Studying improving experience for repairing machines

check

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Apr 1, 2012
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800
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in the mail
Manuals in the old days? We seldom had them. The machines were simple enough to figure out. Sometimes we'd call the dealer for torque specs on cylinder heads, that's about all. I find most service manuals to be 85% useless and a huge distraction. For one thing, they are written by people who are accountable to engineers and to write a manual correctly one must point to all the engineers mistakes and call a spade a spade. Manual writers wouldn't have a job if they did so.

Yes, I drew distinctions when I repaired things. One third of my time was spent correcting failures caused by normal wear and tear, one third of my time was spent correcting failures caused by neglect and abuse and one third of my time was spent correcting failures caused by engineers mistakes and malicious planned in obsolescence.
Manual writers always pretend the latter category does not exist.
 

Planedriver

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Jan 10, 2017
Messages
131
Location
Central Michigan
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Farmer
I think there might have been—the approach we wanted to explore was how we could describe any part on the machine in as few a questions as possible. Whether by starting with general location, and drilling down to material or something like that we would be able to identify a bolt here, or a washer there. Sorry to be a complete noob, but would you mind explaining the alpha, sectional and major group/component searches and how they work—is this done by assembly and sub-assembly in a physical manual?

Rather than explaining I'll direct you to the experience! Since construction parts are a secret for the most part I'll send you to AG parts. The link I provided takes a lot of confusion out of the way getting there. I have you setup to find parts for a 4020, arguably, the best tractor John Deere ever built. The 4020 is an extremely popular and collectible tractor who's engine is still in production in various forms. Albeit the 4020 is not a tractor used on much more than hobby farms now Deere has had 60 years to get the manual right.

Your mission in learning what we deal with form day to day is to provide me the part number and price of a hammer strap for a 1968 4020 Deere. Hint: the hammer strap is part of the drawbar.....

http://www.deere.com/en_US/parts/parts_by_industry/ag/agricultural_parts.page?
 
Last edited:

crane operator

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2009
Messages
8,315
Location
sw missouri
This might sound like a stupid question, but could you give me a quick description of the difference between an engineer and a mechanic in your eyes? In terms of trust, do you trust a mechanic more than an engineer?

Some engineers I know are the smartest people I know. Some mechanics I know are also some of the smartest people I know. I see things constantly on new equipment and think "some stupid engineer that has never been in the field, designed this piece of $%^#."

Typically it is stuff that is designed too fragile for field use, more complicated than it needs to be, or impossible to get at and fix when it breaks, quite possibly all three at the same time.

A engineer may look at a engine compartment and think " how elegant and efficient they were with the use of space, and put all this equipment in this compact area". A mechanic may look and think "how do I change this starter, without dismantling the entire exhaust system?" I think "what would it have hurt, to have the compartment 4" wider?"

A few easy examples for you:

On "new" ford pickups, to work on the heads of the engine- they remove the bed, then remove the entire cab of the truck, and set it where the bed was- just to get access to the motor.

Read some of wille59's posts on working on bobcat skid loaders.

Here's a article on def contamination: to sum it up- go work in a environment where they are constantly moving dirt/rock, open a lid, pour liquids around, but get absolutely no contamination. http://www.equipmentworld.com/def-contamination-and-how-to-avoid-it/
A engineer says "just don't get any contamination". Any mechanic will tell you "in that kind of environment- we're going to get contamination".

Perhaps I find that most older mechanics have much more real world experience, than most engineers get. The mechanic deals with equipment every day, and sees the weak areas and strong of all kinds. Most engineers graduate college, push paper climbing the corporate ladder, and more than likely have little clue how the equipment they are redesigning gets used in the real world, they just get told- make this fit in here. Things get decided in board rooms, meeting rooms and group think sessions, which don't tend to be places where someone raises their hand and says "this is stupid and will never work in the field", because they've never been in the field. Many things look great on a computer model, but don't work in the real world. Not seeing the forest for the trees- so to speak.
 

td25c

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2009
Messages
5,250
Location
indiana
With all due respect TD. ARE YOU NEW? Deere prevailed in a 2015 suit brought by an owner of their equipment asserting he had full right to the tech required to make his machine operate. NOT. Bottom line: you only own the iron not the right to keep it running without Deere. Check this article:
https://www.wired.com/2015/04/dmca-ownership-john-deere/

I knew there was reason I stayed with Minneapolis - Moline . ;)

Thanks for the link Planedriver . I do remember hearing about the story .

This is nothing new . These cat's are spooked big time over there product being copied & modified without Deere's blessing .
Free market has a way of correcting itself on supply & demand end . If it gets to the point the dealer is to expensive or can't handle the work load diagnosing tech problems on software ????
Customer will hire an independent twenty something old " Shade Tree Hacker " to make Johnny Popper move again .
And all will be well :)
 

Planedriver

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Joined
Jan 10, 2017
Messages
131
Location
Central Michigan
Occupation
Farmer
I knew there was reason I stayed with Minneapolis - Moline . ;)

TD, I see you are South of me. Just an FYI... There is an AG equipment dealer near me who has building after building FULL of MM equipment. Some like I have never seen before. Turns out he has been hoarding the stuff for 50+ years. He is usually pretty good about letting people poke around and look at it all. He won't fess up to owning a UDLX but we all think he has one buried somewhere. If you ever get to the middle of Michigan let me know and I'll see if you can't get a tour.
 

John C.

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Machinery & Equipment Appraiser
An engineer is one who designs things. A mechanic is one charged with maintaining and repairing things. Engineers are arrogant people who claim to never make mistakes and their machine is designed to maximize the return on the investment and anyone who thinks otherwise is stupid, ignorant and to be minimized in any way possible. Mechanics have to live with engineer's mistakes and arrogance.

Professional mechanics are people trained and experienced in solving problems as best they can. Troubleshooting problems is a process involving basic knowledge of how an asset is supposed to work, what the components of the asset are and the skill and intuition to find the problem and fix it in the quickest and least expensive way possible.

The service manual issue is a red hearing at this time and age. The real issue is the method of transfer of knowledge. It is now digital and in the hands of the factory people instead of in the machine where it belongs. The service and parts manuals should be part of and accessible inside the machine architecture.

It will not be long before the machine will tell mechanics what the problem is and what component needs to be repaired in order to put the machine back in production again. At that point in time a professional mechanic will cease to exist and all you will have left are parts changers.
 

Planedriver

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Joined
Jan 10, 2017
Messages
131
Location
Central Michigan
Occupation
Farmer
It will not be long before the machine will tell mechanics what the problem is and what component needs to be repaired in order to put the machine back in production again. At that point in time a professional mechanic will cease to exist and all you will have left are parts changers.

That is already happening, at least in AG equipment. see post #15.
 

Hobbytime

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2016
Messages
709
Location
usa
Hi my name is Tom, new member, I'm a student at University of Illinois Chicago. We are looking at how people repair heavy equipment and finding ways to improve the experience of everyone from technicians and engineers at larger companies to self-employed contractors.

We are specifically looking at:

How people identify a specific problem in a machine.
How a defective part itself is then identified (via serial number of part, finding it in physical manuals, etc).
How that part is ordered.

We have been focusing on Cat machinery, but are open to any machine type.

If any of you have any experiences you’d like to share, it would be incredibly valuable. We'd love to hear about problems you often encounter, experiences or products you feel could be made better (from the ease of identifying faulty parts, through to how complicated manuals are), how you learned, or how you are currently learning. All comments are welcome from people who want to vent frustration, to those who would love to share methods to help others.

Also if any of you would be interested in maybe in the future giving a short amount of time in the future for a interview over the phone, please let me know.

Thanks
all engineers that design any equipment should be made to work hands on for at least 5 years fixing and using what they want to design and you will see a big difference on how equipment would be designed for repairs and better thought out design for use...
 

check

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Apr 1, 2012
Messages
800
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in the mail
all engineers that design any equipment should be made to work hands on for at least 5 years fixing and using what they want to design and you will see a big difference on how equipment would be designed for repairs and better thought out design for use...
I think the problem is their employers who tell them to design them as un-user-friendly as possible with as much parts overlap as they can dream up and tangle the electronics into an unfathomably complex nightmare so they can sell more people new machines every 5 years. Lets face it. It's not in the interests of the manufacturers nor the bankers if we keep repairing our equipment and make them last 14,000 hours.
 

Hobbytime

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Sep 21, 2016
Messages
709
Location
usa
I think the problem is their employers who tell them to design them as un-user-friendly as possible with as much parts overlap as they can dream up and tangle the electronics into an unfathomably complex nightmare so they can sell more people new machines every 5 years. Lets face it. It's not in the interests of the manufacturers nor the bankers if we keep repairing our equipment and make them last 14,000 hours.
aint that the truth, and to go 1 step further, john deere has made their software proprietary and only allow licensed john deere people to work on it...here is the link, it forces you to go back to john deere for anything.. http://www.equipmentworld.com/ownership-and-machine-software/
 

td25c

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Feb 14, 2009
Messages
5,250
Location
indiana
TD, I see you are South of me. Just an FYI... There is an AG equipment dealer near me who has building after building FULL of MM equipment. Some like I have never seen before. Turns out he has been hoarding the stuff for 50+ years. He is usually pretty good about letting people poke around and look at it all. He won't fess up to owning a UDLX but we all think he has one buried somewhere. If you ever get to the middle of Michigan let me know and I'll see if you can't get a tour.

That would be a cool tour for sure Planedriver of the MM equipment . I would really enjoy that !:)

Pretty amazing how far innovations have came in the last 30 years .
Makes ya wonder where it's all going in the future ?
My simple future prediction is the high tech computer / GPS controlled equipment will reach a high point at some time?
Then after the peak customers will get tired & frustrated with it & go back to an operator in the cab with some assistance from tech .
I'm a big Jon Kinzenbaw fan . His take was " it aint rocket science , just listen to the customer " .

Always liked his " out side the box " thinking when repowering John Deere tractors with Detroit & Cummins engines.

http://www.kinze.com/about.aspx
http://www.kinze.com/history.aspx#.WLDZYyAo5jp
 

Scrub Puller

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Joined
Mar 29, 2009
Messages
3,481
Location
Gladstone Queensland Australia
Yair . . .
I saw a thing that amused me in a post from Nige on another thread and Nige knows his bickies

I thought he summed up the problem with modern machinery beautifully and he probably did not realise the take old bastards like me would have on his accurate diagnostics on the undercarriage of (I think) a high track D6.

The discussion was about track frame alignment and wear and Nige stated 1/16" of inch of movement was excessive wear in the (I think) spherical bearings on the ends of the equalizer bar . . . obviously with precision bearings this would be the case.

What I ask is why the hell they are there in the first place? For what sixty or seventy years Cats and other crawler tractors got by with the equalizer ends floating on the track frame why put precision in such an improbable place . . . one sixteenth slop underneath a D6 and its time for repairs???? bloody unbelievable.

The dirt and rock and timber remains the same but we a building ever my complex and sophisticated machines to deal with it to the detriment of the folks trying to do the work.

Cheers.
 

Brodiesel

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May 11, 2014
Messages
259
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Winnemucca, NV
Occupation
My wife makes all the $$$.
The main problem "as I see it" is, the new wave/generation of "engineers".. The NOMENCLATURE has changed.. Such as a "cheese head" screw?? The manuals of the 60's called a screw a screw, a bolt a bolt, what size it was, ie: thread, length and head size and told you which way to actually turn it, to tighten or loosen..
They were written in a way a "farmer" w/ limited schooling, could look at a picture and work on & repair the equipment
The biggest problem back then, was coming up w/ the money to BUY the manual.. but once you had it.. that was ALL you needed..
Look at ANY parts manual or service manual written in the last 10 years and go to the injection pump/fuel system..
All you get is.. MAYBE some half assed instruction on how to pull the injection pump off.. AND THEN..send the system to and authorized shop.. where your at the mercy of the shop and their rates..
The OLDER manuals actually broke the system down and detailed instructions on how to repair/overhaul it.. that's why older manuals from the 60's & 70's are so valuable..

I understand what your saying, but don't you think fuel pumps and injectors should be handled by "authorized" shops? Sure, the pump-line-nozzle stuff is straight forward enough to handle in the field but once you get into the axial/rotary/inline pumps or the high pressure and common rail systems I don't think average mechanics shoulld be messing a round with them. I'll never forget going to this guys shop, he was swapping a 4BT into a jeep or something, there was a room nearby where he had halfway tore into the VE pump and I guess his brother decided to start a drywall job above him on the 2nd floor, a sheet of drywall crumbled apart right above the table the pump was on and it total ruined it, covered it inside and out with drywall debris. And I have a couple of my own horror stories but Ill save those for later.
 

Brodiesel

Senior Member
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May 11, 2014
Messages
259
Location
Winnemucca, NV
Occupation
My wife makes all the $$$.
I have some Grove manuals for my TMS 300's and 250's, from the late 70's. They are some of the best manuals ever made (in my opinion).

There is a parts manual, every part on the crane, with part numbers and diagrams, if a repair kit is available for a certain item, it has its own listing (ex. hydraulic cylinder seal kit).

The service manual is even better. They had a complete engine book, transmission book (both with pictures of complete tear down and reassembly) . A full step by step troubleshooting section. The crane portion shows complete tear down of individual components, with pictures of disassembly and reassembly. For example- the winches show a step by step disassembly and reassembly, showing how the parts work and fit, and how to tear it down, and reassemble. The service books would cost quite a bit to make today, but to me they are worth it. I always say you could air drop a old grove, in a third world country, and with a set of books, and a minimal set of tools, fix anything wrong with it. Take your diagnostic machine/ laptop, and throw them out the window.

It was easier for grove also to justify the cost of making the books the first time, because they made the same models for so long. The first tms300's came out in 1972, I think the last ones were early 90's. They didn't have a bunch of engineers, trying to justify their existence on the payroll, by redesigning some portion of the crane every year. The crane was a good model, well designed from the start, and they saw no reason to change for change's sake.

Today's Grove GMK series (all terrain cranes) don't even come with a service manual! Grove can't justify the cost, they say, for so many different models, and I can see it because they are constantly redesigning things. Full power booms, locking pin booms. Cable extend booms. Some have 3 telescope cylinders, some two- some only one. Some single engine, some dual engine. Fixed jib, luffing jib, hydraulic power luffing swing away. Different driveline and axle, and suspension arrangements. All you get with a multi million dollar crane is a parts disc, and you can send your mechanic to their service school. Which only covers the newest models.:rolleyes: What if your mechanic leaves? I know- call the dealer. Except my nearest dealer is 4 hours away. That's great when you've got a load in the air and the crane quits working right, or your dead on the side of the road (with a 100.000lb machine)- I can call in and wait two days for the dealer to show up with his special computer.

You can take your computer program, and computer parts systems and shove them. If my manual from 1977 was on a computer from then, how would I read it today? Try looking up parts on a microfiche machine, I've done it, and it isn't any fun. What are the odds that the computer program from today, will be able to be read in 20 years, even 10? The operating systems become obsolete, then you can't read the manual.

"contact the manufacturer"--- Who knows which manufacturer is going to be around in 5- 10 or 15 years. I've got machines from obsolete company's, if I've got a book manual, I can still see how something comes apart.

I know everyone today wants all their info on their phone or laptop, I have all my equipment listed on my phone with serial #'s for convienence, but I can still read my manual from 1977, even if it was in a different language, I could still look at the pictures.

I like my pictures on my phone and computer, but unless someone makes a hard copy of them, I can't see my kids in 30 years looking at pictures of what dad did, way back when, like I can look at a picture of my grandfathers farm.

So- to end my rant- I prefer a hard copy, paper manual, 3 ring binder, with no computer interface connection, or dealer only servicable/identifiable items. Don't make me have your "special" computer program, or ones that only the dealer can access. You want to make a repair program, don't let a engineer write it , have a mechanic write it. You want to see a real manual- go on ebay- find a tms 300 service/repair manual and parts manual, and drop $100 and buy one. Look through it. Don't reinvent the wheel.

I agree. Alot of those older manuals are beautiful! What I have seen to remedy this is people literally scanning and converting old manuals to .pdf files. That way, your looking at the original manual, scrolling through all the pages, and sometimes you can even search the text. And for me its nice, I work on ANYTHING diesel so it saves alot of room and money. I have a folder on my computer with alphabetized manufacturers so I can quickly find service or parts manuals that I have saved
 

Brodiesel

Senior Member
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May 11, 2014
Messages
259
Location
Winnemucca, NV
Occupation
My wife makes all the $$$.
Thanks—that is all super helpful! I'd love to find one of those older manuals and measure them against the newer ones. I love the idea of putting the power back in the hands of everyone and decentralizing information and systems which aren't dealer specific or can only be accessed by "the man". This might sound like a stupid question, but could you give me a quick description of the difference between an engineer and a mechanic in your eyes? In terms of trust, do you trust a mechanic more than an engineer?

This is interesting, you should do a similar topic on an engineering board and see what you come up with. I think the biggest difference is the lifestyle. I respect engineers, and If I was more studious I would have liked to be one. But it does seem like there's a big separation between the two, like the mechanics and engineers aren't hanging out at the same bars, you know what I mean? I don't know who I would trust more.
 

Brodiesel

Senior Member
Joined
May 11, 2014
Messages
259
Location
Winnemucca, NV
Occupation
My wife makes all the $$$.
An engineer is one who designs things. A mechanic is one charged with maintaining and repairing things. Engineers are arrogant people who claim to never make mistakes and their machine is designed to maximize the return on the investment and anyone who thinks otherwise is stupid, ignorant and to be minimized in any way possible. Mechanics have to live with engineer's mistakes and arrogance.

Professional mechanics are people trained and experienced in solving problems as best they can. Troubleshooting problems is a process involving basic knowledge of how an asset is supposed to work, what the components of the asset are and the skill and intuition to find the problem and fix it in the quickest and least expensive way possible.

The service manual issue is a red hearing at this time and age. The real issue is the method of transfer of knowledge. It is now digital and in the hands of the factory people instead of in the machine where it belongs. The service and parts manuals should be part of and accessible inside the machine architecture.

It will not be long before the machine will tell mechanics what the problem is and what component needs to be repaired in order to put the machine back in production again. At that point in time a professional mechanic will cease to exist and all you will have left are parts changers.


Whats a mechanic? Were all technicians now!!!! HAHAHA
 

Brodiesel

Senior Member
Joined
May 11, 2014
Messages
259
Location
Winnemucca, NV
Occupation
My wife makes all the $$$.
I'm just interested in how likely you or others are to have a printer around—if you had something digital which allowed you to print would that help or does that just mean you have to buy a printer and fix that every time it goes down too ;)?

If somebody is using SIS, chances are they have a printer, and they print out service specs while servicing a machine, good part is you can get the printouts all dirty then just throw em away when your done, I even recycle them sometimes!
 
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