Pulling 200 track hoe on tag trailer

[suladas]

I know it seems many are against a 200 on a tag, but i've been doing it behind tandem dump and find it pulls great, and no problems whatsoever. But I need to buy my own truck, and I am wondering how many have done it with a single axle? The hoe and trailer weight about 62,000lbs, I would need about 9,000lbs pin weight to be legal on trailer axles. However, that is with bucket on hoe, and extra bucket too, if I had to i'd be open to putting both buckets on deck of truck which would save about 4500lbs.

The reason I want a single axle is to get around more places, and also use it to pull my mini ex and a skidsteer I will be buying on a 20 ton tag. I know I would need a big motor, heavy axles, etc to make the truck heavy.

It will be a bit of a unicorn to find, but there is some 500+hp with 10 speeds in daycab tractors, and hopefully get 14 or 16 front with 23 rear. Ideally want a big longer wheelbase to make sure steers don't get light. From what i've found, the truck as a tractor would weight a little over 13,000lbs and by the time I put a deck, slip tank, hitch, etc I am guessing it would be up to about 16,500lbs. The tandem dump I pull it with now is pretty much right on 20,000lbs, it's a light international, only 330hp with allison. Front end doesn't get light at all, and I believe empty it's about 8500 front 11500 rears. So the single axle would actually be heavier in the front end by a bit.

For simplicity, if the single axle had the same weight on front axle, and say rear was 3500lbs less, and the same wheelbase would it not be about the same as far as steer axle is concerned? What about if buckets were on deck, and the single axle actually weighted more then the dump?

I can still borrow the tandem dump for any out of town jobs, it will simply be moving it in the city, maybe 15 times a year. I just need a way to move it myself as the dump is too busy in the summer otherwise. I wouldn't consider it if I was going to be moving it on the highway, but it will never see that as my yard is right on the edge of the city so I don't need to ever go over 45 MPH with it. The reason i'm not looking at a tandem dump is the cost, for any sort of decent truck i'm looking at $50k and even that doesn't buy much. Meanwhile I can get a really nice single axle for $20-30k.

I'm not worried about the weight behind the truck, there's enough single axles grossing over 100,000lbs all the time on the highway and it wouldn't be done if they didn't do fine. It's the pin weight of the pintle i'm concerned about how it will handle with one less axle on the truck.

 

[Shimmy1]

Don't do it. I pulled a 25 ton tag with a tandem, hauling a 25 ton hoe for almost 10 years. You never really feel comfortable, and I would guess a single would be worse. JMHO.

 

[suladas]

Don't do it. I pulled a 25 ton tag with a tandem, hauling a 25 ton hoe for almost 10 years. You never really feel comfortable, and I would guess a single would be worse. JMHO.

I am shocked by that. Like I said i've pulled it with tandem dump numerous times and it pulls like a dream, I feel as comfortable as hauling my old 25 ton on a stepdeck. Maybe trailer, etc makes a difference? It's a triple axle with 17.5" tires so the weight being lower helps. But it pulls like a dream, even at 60 mph.

 

[Shimmy1]

I guess "comfort" is relative to what you're used to. I thought it was fine too until I got older and drove a semi for the first time. An RGN on a fifth wheel loaded to 90,000 vs. a tag on a hook is no different than a the gooseneck vs. bumper pull behind a pickup argument, there really is no comparison. I told myself I wasn't even going to mention the word safety, because they're both "safe", but I would much rather be in a "situation" with a tandem on the front instead of a single axle.

 

[suladas]

I guess "comfort" is relative to what you're used to. I thought it was fine too until I got older and drove a semi for the first time. An RGN on a fifth wheel loaded to 90,000 vs. a tag on a hook is no different than a the gooseneck vs. bumper pull behind a pickup argument, there really is no comparison. I told myself I wasn't even going to mention the word safety, because they're both "safe", but I would much rather be in a "situation" with a tandem on the front instead of a single axle.

I hear you there. I pulled my 6 ton mini ex with my pickup for the first time with a bumper pull, and when I bought my gooseneck it was a big difference, the gooseneck pulls so much easier, but both did feel safe.

I wouldn't consider it if it wasn't safe. Or if I was going to be pulling it everyday, but for maybe 600-800 miles a year only in the city, and maybe only for a year it's a different story. It would see more use pulling my mini ex, and skidsteer but pulling maybe 30,000lbs I know is no issue. If business keeps getting busier, I would be adding a tandem dump of my own next year. But with needing truck, and skidsteer purchase this year, that's all I want to finance right now.

 

[crane operator]

I'm not worried about the weight behind the truck, there's enough single axles grossing over 100,000lbs all the time on the highway and it wouldn't be done if they didn't do fine

I guess I don't see that in my area. If you wanted me to load up and take off with 62,000 on a trailer behind a single axle day cab, pintle hitch, I'd probably not be very interested. Way more weight on the trailer, and not much on the truck is no fun at all. The tandem dump, that you pull it now with, that weighs 20,000 actually helps you, and more rubber on the ground is better.

Ideally want a big longer wheelbase to make sure steers don't get light.

If your looking at longer wheel base anyways, why not tandem?

Or if I was going to be pulling it everyday, but for maybe 600-800 miles a year only in the city, and maybe only for a year it's a different story.

If you have to make excuses that you're not doing it very often, then you shouldn't probably be doing it at all.

If your in a flat area (I'm not), yes, you could get it moving, but what happens when somebody pulls out in front of you? Local guy here has a similar trailer set up, pulling with a tandem dump, and lost a telehandler forklift, a couple years ago because of this.

Single axle tractor and your skid or mini would be fine, but I don't think I'd be up for the big excavator.

 

[suladas]

I guess I don't see that in my area. If you wanted me to load up and take off with 62,000 on a trailer behind a single axle day cab, pintle hitch, I'd probably not be very interested. Way more weight on the trailer, and not much on the truck is no fun at all. The tandem dump, that you pull it now with, that weighs 20,000 actually helps you, and more rubber on the ground is better.




If your looking at longer wheel base anyways, why not tandem?



If you have to make excuses that you're not doing it very often, then you shouldn't probably be doing it at all.

If your in a flat area (I'm not), yes, you could get it moving, but what happens when somebody pulls out in front of you? Local guy here has a similar trailer set up, pulling with a tandem dump, and lost a telehandler forklift, a couple years ago because of this.

Single axle tractor and your skid or mini would be fine, but I don't think I'd be up for the big excavator.

It's flat here, there's a few hills to go around the river in the city, but nothing of concern. The 330hp 6 speed auto does fine and that's not much power for the weight.

You see guys pulling 200's behind tandem dump trucks all the time here, and single axle tractors pulling heavy fifth wheels. There is some big transport companies here pulling 3 single axle trailers behind single axle daycab tractors, no idea if they are using the full capacity, but the units could be grossing at 132,000lbs with 7 axles.

A tandem won't turn nearly as short, and would be such a pain for using other then the 200. For now, I would use the truck entirely for my work truck, so many days no trailer at all, don't want to be driving around the city in a tandem when I don't need it. To get in some places with my 3500 pulling a 30' gooseneck is tough, I can't have a setup any longer.

As far as stopping, it's like anything else the trailer needs to be capable of stopping itself, and it is. In fact, I would bet with a real jake on a 500hp tractor with a 10 speed the single axle would have more stopping power then the dump i'm pulling it with now. I mean if you're grossing 140,000lbs and the trailer can't stop itself you're in a world of trouble, any loaded truck and trailer is if the trailer cannot stop itself.

Without knowing the fully story no idea where the fault is, could easily be the driver not securing load properly, overloaded, too fast, etc etc. Unless the entire unit rolled or went off the road, how could loosing the load be the fault of the single axle? If he couldn't stop and swerved and lost it, 100% on the driver and shouldn't be driving a heavy truck when you don't know what you're doing.

Well I was thinking more of pulling it on the highway if it's icy, the longer heavier truck would be more ideal.

 

[Junkyard]

62,000 trailer and load will throw a single axle truck around like a rag doll. It's not about stopping power or anything else. It's weight proportions and leverage afforded the trailer by the method of attachment. A single axle pulling a 5th wheel is an entirely different scenario so don't let that make you think it's safe. It's not. It's not about what happens 99% of the time. It's that 1% when something unforeseen and completely out of your control happens. You have a panic stop, evasive maneuver etc. There is zero room for error.

I'm getting a slight sense of "it won't happen to me" or "they don't understand what I do or where I do it". I assure you all of us do. If you can't get a rig in there to work then what could be done that you'd need a hoe that big. Anywhere you can get a pickup and 30' I can get a tandem dump and pintle hitch. Your reasoning sounds like a person that hasn't driven a lot of miles in a heavy truck or had a couple serious "oh $hit" moments.

Take our advice and do what's safe. I don't think you want to live with yourself if you had a wreck and killed somebody or left them permanently injured. Heaven forbid that happens but IF it did you'd lose EVERYTHING you own. I don't care how good your insurance is. They'll look at a rig like that and ride the phrase "gross negligence" all the way to the bank.

 

[AzIron]

one of my trucks is a single axle i have hauled a 33,000 lbs hoe with it on a 25 ton lowboy my gross weight was 62500 lbs its all legal and its safe but to stop that load takes way more effort than it does in my truck with tandems. i could legally get up to 70000 with that set up but i wont do it especially driving in the city like junkyard said in that 1 moment it will eat your lunch.

Junkyard is also right about putting a tandem with a tag anywhere your pickup and goosneck goes

i cant take a 265 inch wheel base truck with a 40 foot trailer into subdivisions that other guys cant make it into with a pickup and gooseneck because they dont know how to drive

 

[crane operator]

In fact, I would bet with a real jake on a 500hp tractor with a 10 speed the single axle would have more stopping power then the dump i'm pulling it with now.

Not when it weighs 7,000 lbs less and all the weight is on the back bumper with a pintle, vs the dump having the bed and the extra set of tandems on the ground. Hp won't help it stop.

When you light off the jake, the braking effort is only on the driveline, and on a single axle that's not very much rubber on the ground. It would skip that single axle around because there's just not enough weight on it.

With the single axle light truck and pintle, you're going to have a lot of trouble also with your steer axle weight. Sure the trailer might be able to stop itself, but can you keep it headed the direction you want to go?

Generally what everyone else is doing (hauling the 200 on a tag behind a tandem dump) is the bare minimum. If there was a way to get by with less truck or trailer, that's what everyone else would be doing also. I'm not above trying to save $, or thinking outside the box, but I don't think your going to find a bunch of people here who say "that sounds like a great idea, why didn't I think of that!" Because its not a good idea.

Part of the reason I enjoy reading here so much, is because there's such a wealth of knowledge, so many of these guys have been there and done that, and have all the scars to prove it. And there's always people who will ask for advice, and cheerfully go on their merry way and do what they want anyway. Good luck.

 

[Crummy]

I had a S/A dump that was originally a tractor that pulled Oregon triples, so plenty of everything- power, brakes, CGWR. I'd use it because it was easier to get into places than the 3 axle pulling a tag. Until I had an emergency stop situation- that short wheelbase was a handful to get whoa'd up & after that bigger stuff always went behind the Pete. So I'm going to be a "can be done, but not me" on the little Wiggle-Wagons.

 

[Tags]

I currently have a tandem dump with a 15 foot body and a set back front axle and can pretty much get into anywhere but the tightest driveway on a single lane rd with a 20 ton tag with a 21 foot flat deck and a 5 foot beaver plus the tongue and tows the trailer like a dream, I've towed a 160 size machine around with it a handful of times and would want nothing less than a tandem for that and I constantly tow a 33,000 lb machine behind it. Not sure why you'd try to do more with less, the tandem is so handy, especially when you want to always take "one more bucket" of material away from a job, a six wheeler fills up pretty quick and in the end is just better for running heavy with a trailer....

 

[suladas]

I appreciate the input everyone. A tandem dump with pintle of even a 25' trailer won't have a hope in hell getting into the areas I do with my pickup and gooseneck. It's not getting into the subdivisions, it's that I do mostly infill in older areas, and pull it down narrow alleys to avoid walking the mini excavator long distances, and even some of the front streets are tough. It's not for the 200, I won't even try to pull down an alley with it in tow. I guess it depends what you are, but with my old setup tandem tractor with sleeper, and 53' stepdeck, there was tons of corners I didn't have a hope in hell in making, and you need to be careful or you will be backing up a long long ways (or worse) because you cannot make a corner. When you have idiots parked everywhere, i've had to squeeze through areas were the flags on both sides of the hoe were touching vehicle mirrors. I'm not trying to brag, but I can assure you, if a truck and trailer can get in somewhere, I am more then capable of getting it there.

Of course you have to consider the 1%, but at the same time you can only do so much. I would never drive a setup that isn't safe. But what some consider unsafe, many many others consider safe (and it is). For example how many consider a 200 on a pintle unsafe? I have never felt unsafe yet, even in terrible road conditions. Or my other setup, a 6 ton mini on a gooseneck behind a srw one ton? I am dumbfounded at that one that some consider that unsafe. So i'm not trying to be rude, but someone saying "it's unsafe" doesn't mean a lot to me unless it is backed up by concrete reasons. As far as legalities, a single axle pulling a 200 on a 25 ton tag would not have any issues, maybe it's different in the USA, but in Canada, you have nothing to worry about if you're legal, regardless if someone thinks it's not safe by looking at it.

I'm curious what you mean by evasive maneuver? I don't care if i'm pulling a 200 with a single axle, or a tri-drive, I would not ever dream of swerving to avoid someone cutting me off if i'm going any speed, etc that's a death sentence in any semi. I guess people have different views, but unless a ditch is nearly flat, I would never purposely go into one to avoid a collision with a heavy piece of equipment in tow, or swerve at a high speed because you're going to go over or at least the load will. I know someone who swerved in a loaded tandem dump to avoid a car running a light, and ended up in the hospital very banged up because the truck rolled on it's side. Had he done the smart thing and stayed straight, probably wouldn't have a scratch. Hate to say it, but anytime i'm driving the semi if someone does something stupid my opinion is me before them, if I can avoid something without putting my safety in jeopardy, I will do so, otherwise nope.

I've had close calls, and every single one has been someone else not paying attention and doing something stupid, getting cut off is the big one. Which is why all my vehicles have dash cams to protect myself. I understand that a pintle and 5th wheel is different the 5th wheel is more stable as far as sway, and taking weight off the steer axle instead of putting on is different. I know having a shorter wheelbase is a negative (although it could easily have the same wheelbase as a tandem). In reality, the only hard and fast difference is the 4 extra tires on the ground. It could be loaded with enough weight on the front of the deck to make sure the steers have proper weight, wheelbase the same, so it would leave the tires as the difference, I am aware that that is a significant difference however.

I agree it is a step down from a tandem for sure and less traction for braking power if the road isn't dry, but what i'm getting at is, how good is a tandem for the setup? I completely disagree that the tandem dump is the absolute minimum, but don't know if the setup i'm considering is too far below what is safe.

I really would like to find is more opinions from people who run a single axle pulling a heavy pintle, maybe even the setup i'm considering that would really help me decide. As I will not consider the combination unless I am 110% sure it is safe and will work.

 

[suladas]

I had a S/A dump that was originally a tractor that pulled Oregon triples, so plenty of everything- power, brakes, CGWR. I'd use it because it was easier to get into places than the 3 axle pulling a tag. Until I had an emergency stop situation- that short wheelbase was a handful to get whoa'd up & after that bigger stuff always went behind the Pete. So I'm going to be a "can be done, but not me" on the little Wiggle-Wagons.

I'm curious how much were you pulling with the single axle? You felt it was strictly the shorter wheelbase that made the difference? How much difference in wheelbase is your single axle compared to tandem?

 

[suladas]

I currently have a tandem dump with a 15 foot body and a set back front axle and can pretty much get into anywhere but the tightest driveway on a single lane rd with a 20 ton tag with a 21 foot flat deck and a 5 foot beaver plus the tongue and tows the trailer like a dream, I've towed a 160 size machine around with it a handful of times and would want nothing less than a tandem for that and I constantly tow a 33,000 lb machine behind it. Not sure why you'd try to do more with less, the tandem is so handy, especially when you want to always take "one more bucket" of material away from a job, a six wheeler fills up pretty quick and in the end is just better for running heavy with a trailer....

The single axle would have a flatdeck, not a dump. I would still have access to the tandem dump I do now, it's just that it's my dads truck and I need a truck of my own to pull the hoe and trailer the majority, or better yet all the time. I can get a nice single axle for $20-30k, that will buy me a old worn out tandem dump I will be working on all the time which I have no interest in. To buy a tandem I would consider, I need to spend about $80k because it needs to be an auto with at least 400hp. If I go to a standard, it would primarily used to move the hoe, and i'd still be hiring out most of my hauling because I can't run the hoe and drive the truck. And the two people who drive for me now, mostly my mom and sometimes my dad cannot drive a stick (well my dad could, but he's way too hard on a standard, so won't consider it). Finding a decent driver is hard enough, finding one who can drive standard? Almost impossible. Can't even find decent laborers to run a $100 hand tool, never mind an expensive truck. So I can't buy a $50k standard tandem dump that will not see much use.

So that's were i'm at. I did briefly consider a tandem daycab tractor that would be suitable to put a dump box on later, but it would still end up near the $80k mark, i'd just get a newer/lower mileage truck as it makes no sense to spend the same amount on the rig up, to rig up a old worn out truck.

 

[td25c]

Have you considered a short tandem day cab tractor with wet kit ?

Pick up a good used single drop lowboy for moving equipment and a short dump trailer for hauling material .

All these items are pretty common and not that big of a deal to swap trailers depending on the job .

Just a thought .

 

[Crummy]

I'm curious how much were you pulling with the single axle?

315, so 36k-ish

You felt it was strictly the shorter wheelbase that made the difference?

Yes.

How much difference in wheelbase is your single axle compared to tandem?

I haven't had those rigs for quite awhile now, around 60" (1.5m up north there?). Maybe more, that little IH S2375 was pretty short.

 

[suladas]

Have you considered a short tandem day cab tractor with wet kit ?

Pick up a good used single drop lowboy for moving equipment and a short dump trailer for hauling material .

All these items are pretty common and not that big of a deal to swap trailers depending on the job .

Just a thought .

I have, I had that before. While a daycab would gain me a few feet shorter wheelbase, I had a 29' tandem end dump before and it just can't get into all sites. One site I dump concrete at a lot you won't get into, and many sites for hauling dirt too. The other issue is I just bought the tag and put over $6k into it, and the hassle of trying to sell, payout penalty on my financing, etc I just don't want to bother. Plus I really like the ease of loading the tilt deck. If I went with a single axle, I had considered searching for like a 25' end dump, as that would get in virtually anywhere.

I am leaning towards buying the single axle, rig it all up with 40t pintle and give it a go pulling the 200. If it's fine awesome, if not just use it for my mini and skidsteer. I was looking and I can get a 2006-2010 with about 500,000 miles for $10k. Even if I still need another truck later for the 200, only spending $10k on a truck now isn't much to put out.

I'm curious what do you guys think of a 330hp truck with a 6 speed Allison for pulling the 200 permanently in a tandem dump? As I can find those light ones for a half decent price. That's what i'm pulling it with now, I haven't pulled it yet since it got out of the shop, one turbo the wastegate wasn't opening properly and the EGR was sucking up like a gallon of coolant a day so I know the truck wasn't at full power, it was definitely working hard, especially on the small hills. I'm not as worried about it on this truck as it's nearly new with only 45,000 miles. But buying a bit older one with maybe 200,000 miles is different. I looked up the transmission and it says it's good for 36,300kgs. With the trailer and current dump i'm sitting at about 37,500kgs. But at the same time, a tractor would be loaded on the truck to 22500kg, where as the the dump would only be at about 14,000kg as it's pulling most of the weight so it should be easier on it. I've seen that hp and auto combo in some tandem highway tractors even. I just don't want to buy a truck and take the automatic out of it, the transmission did creep up close to 200f when I was pulling it on a hill, and that is in the winter, change the outside temperature from 0f to 80f and i'm sure the temperature would be quite a bit higher yet. I didn't get anywhere fast with it, but as long as it won't kill the truck it worked fine for me.

 

[old-iron-habit]

Sounds to me like your mind is made up. Don't let the experts fool you into something safer. Good luck and may your bad day never come.

 

[suladas]

Sounds to me like your mind is made up. Don't let the experts fool you into something safer. Good luck and may your bad day never come.

I'm not sure where you're inferring that from, I mentioned I am still considering a tandem dump, and even if I go the single route, that I am fully expecting that it may not be capable of pulling the 200 and won't be used for doing so. I am not convinced it's safe, but i'm also not convinced that it's not safe, I am leaning towards the not safe side. But either way, I am gathering more information before I decide one way or another.