Coolant in oil pan JD6059

[rsherril]

So I didn't sleep too well last night thinking about Birken's post. I also suspect that the block heater failure wasn't just coincidence, but maybe had something to with absence of coolant. So I probably ran it for about 5 hr. with contaminated oil. I have just about lost all my innocence here. So my plan to get it to town will include worst case scenario of .....ouch!

We know the engine will turn over so it will start and I can take it easy for the first couple of miles and get a feel for how it's going. If it doesn't sound good I can pull it over in friendly territory while I've still got steering, shut it down and call for transport.
Now these 570's have a tow mode on the transmission, so worst case might be a heavy duty tow truck. Might even be cheaper than the $400 minimum for the lowboy. Does it sound like maybe I still haven't quite lost all my innocence yet?

 

[rsherril]

So the drive into town was interesting as I haven't had a piece of equipment around traffic like that since .... a long time ago. Never through double round abouts just off interstate traffic. A first for me, maybe for some drivers too.
So I arrived at the shop under my own power an with no additional ornaments. Let the mechanic, Jay, know that I had filled the radiator with straight water and that it would need drained before he left as temps were expected to be in the mId twenty's that night.. Being a mechanic, he had several jobs going, so that gave me something to worry about last night too, (l'm getting my money's out of this project). Went by early this morning to drop off the coolant half expecting to find that water hadn't been drained and then what. Well I'm not dealing amateurs as the drain tub was underneath. Looked like there was still enough coolant still in the system to protect down aways any ways.
So it will be next week before I know the damages therefore I'm taking the weekend off. Don't Worry, Be Happy the man said, (Apparently he didn't have equipment sitting at the shop). Some how this is gonna turn out OK.

 

[kshansen]

rsherril,
Glad to hear you got it there without too much trouble. Over the years I have helped escort and on one occasion drove a piece of equipment over the road and it always amazes me how crazy some car driver act around big equipment. They seem to think a big piece of machinery can stop or turn like a little sports car and do not understand the idea of if you can not see the operator he sure as **** can't see you!

Almost forgot, hope to see some pictures showing what they find once it's opened up on the operating table!

 

[mikebramel]

If the leak is that slow I'd try some almond powder tablets. Sold under GM, AC Delco, or Bar's leak, etc

 

[rsherril]

Looks like I'll have some solid evidence of where the problem is today. The engine is ready to come out this morning.
The owner of the shop called yesterday to discuss where I might want to go with this project once they open it up. Of course much of will depend on why the coolant went into the pan. As the labor costs will be significant, he thought that I might want to consider a bottom end rebuild which would include bearings, sleeves and such items. The upside being I shouldn't have any more problems "down there" in the near future.
A little review here. The engine has 2900 hrs since the repower in 1992. It's fair to say about 100 hrs per year since then and I intend to put about 200 more hours on it before we part company. I would expect resale value around 15-20K. So I'm weighing the cost benefits for resale. I think that I wIll be looking at 5K for the bottom end rebuild, sleeves and so on.
As we won't know the cause and conditions until around noon today, that will have some bearing, (no pun intended), on the decision.
I expect that they will want to know what's next and I'll need to give them an answer for a parts order soon afterwards. Will keep you posted but I'll most likely have to make a decision before the end of the day. Would appreciate any comments beforehand concerning the pros and cons of a bottom end rebuild for resale value.
- Bob

 

[cuttin edge]

2900 hrs is nothing. If the rod and mains are still in spec, I wouldn't touch them. The crank might be pitted from water in the base, but if not I'd leave them alone.

 

[rsherril]

That's my thinking as these engines should be able to go 7000 to 10,000 hrs before that kind of work. I think we'll just have to see what we got before "I get my panties in a bunch" so to speak. Thanks

 

[rsherril]

I'm home now and watching some deer in the yard and the whole predator prey relationship is coming into focus. These deer all have stations, some feeding and some looking out. Around the neighborhood some cougar tracks have been spotted, so the deer have a right to be nervous. Thinking back to my grader being torn down with it's innards hanging out I'm beginning to get the picture. I've probably got a couple grand in shop bills now and still don't have a clue as to the cause of the red stuff in the sump.
I watched the pressure test with the motor outside and nothing was coming out the lower end. Came back later and the engine is on legs in the shop. The idea is to do another pressure test in a controlled environment.
Still can't rule out a head gasket. Will have to wait until Monday for results.
I've set some limits on what's it's worth around 3K. After that, I'm thinking fix it and sell it.
Shop seems amenable to doing that on site. I'm thinking it's gonna be a long weekend.
Any one want to fill me in on the details on how this might work out? I'm seeing all kinds of possibilities here, some better than others.
When you sell a piece of equipment on site, does the shop expect a cut? If so, how much? Does the shop have any incentives here? If so, does this deal need to be in writing? Are my panties bunching prematurely?

 

[GregsHD]

I hope they pressure tested with antifreeze in the block, not just water. Antifreeze will leak through where water wont.

 

[580bob]

when they pressure test make sure they rotate to move pistons I have had it where liners have pinholed and until you turn it over to a different spot wont leak.. how old was antifreeze that was in it? if it was more than 3-4 years old it was probably the cause as it turns acidic and loves to eat liners

 

[rsherril]

580Bob & GregsHD, Interesting you should post that info. I stopped by today to check on the damages and they were scratchin their heads as there wasn't a leak to be found and the system was holding pressure. Some thinking that roading it in heated things up to seal the leak up. Thinking then that it might be best to take the head off and pull a couple of liners for inspection. $$$
I passed your posts on and found out that they did rotate the crank shaft and pistons , however were still using clear water. He did pull the valve cover and noticed some milky oil in there. BTW I've been running the coolant Final Charge for last 200 hrs. Before that it was the regular green glycol.
I don't know what to think now, but sure appreciate your ideas here. Thanks
-Bob

 

[rsherril]

I checked the Bar Leak website and in hindsight Mike Bramel's recommendation for plugging the leak in situ makes a lot of sense now. 20/20 they say.

 

[kshansen]

One other thing, not sure if the water pump is belt driven or gear driven on this engine.

I had a problem years ago with a 16V-71 Detroit that had water in the oil. Did a pressure test of the cooling system with oil pans off and valve covers off to check all the normal suspects for leaking. Spent a whole day with not a drop of coolant to be seen.

Went home for the night and came back the next morning to see a stream of coolant across the shop floor. Followed the trail and coolant was coming from the inside of the front cover right where the water pump was mounted! Seems counter to what one would expect that the pressure in the cooling system actually helped the water seal in the pump to seal better. When pressure dropped off over night is when it would leak.

 

[Delmer]

The pump is belt driven, but that's the best advice at the moment, Ken, let it sit with and without pressure.

Otherwise, what are you gonna do???

 

[GregsHD]

That reminded me of a similar situation having pressure tested all day with no leaks, then coming in the next day to find a mess on the floor. Too much time has passed to remember any details though!

Never had any luck with barsleak, only product I've seen work for any period of time is irontite brand sealer.

 

[rsherril]

Got the word from the mechanic that all six cylinder liners are "like swiss cheese". Maybe some hyperbole there, but the game is the same and I'll be paying to replace them. I reviewed some of the coolant threads and concluded that my flush and switch to Final Charge ELC in 2014 was probably the right thing to do, just too late to make much difference.
So lessons learned would include change all fluids ASAP when purchasing used machines w/o maintenance records that do not reflect that it was completed as manufacturer recommend.
Found it interesting that some liners could be rotated if they weren't too bad, but don't quite understand why one would choose that route as yet. Maybe when I see the bill I'll be even smarter.

 

[rsherril]

OK here are the pics. All six liners have corrosion at the bottom end where the liner thins. Looks pretty clean towards the top. So my question is: are we seeing cavitation or electrolysis? The mechanic says electrolysis, as cavitation should be higher up where combustion is taking place. I would like to slow this process, whatever it is, down. I think that would require two different approaches. Electrolysis being a battery between two different elements and cavitation the result of gas imploding on the surface. If it is electrolysis then the conductive medium maybe needs changing, ie add nitrates to ethyl glycol and ditch the extended life coolant, (ELC=organic acid=electrolyte?). My understanding being that a battery requires three components, (electrolyte + anode+cathode with electrolyte = coolant here) and cavitation only a gas bubble collapsing explosively on a surface.

Do the nitrates added to regular coolant act like gun blueing and plate a non conductive surface on one of the metal surfaces?
Do the organic acids in ELC contribute to electrolysis when the machine sets for extended periods of time?

 

[rsherril]

Don't think the pics uploaded correctly. Will try again.

 

[oarwhat]

I'm no expert but I've seen a few cavitaded liners. They weren't rusty . They had small pits near the center of the liner.

 

[kshansen]

I'm no expert but I've seen a few cavitaded liners. They weren't rusty . They had small pits near the center of the liner.

That is what I remember as common mostly with the 855 Cummins and some Cat engines we had in many machines back in the day. A more or less vertical line of pits about half way between the top flange and the orings at the bottom. And yes I do know some people did recommend rotating them about 90º if reusing them. Thing is I don't think we ever rebuilt an engine where the bore was anywhere near reusing. Maybe an over the road truck engine you might find that but in a stone quarry the dust would wear them out even with good air filters.

My opinion from the rust and location of the pits would tend to tell me it was just lack of good coolant maintenance. I would also be wanting to look at the lower bores in the block, seen them also get real bad in that area.

Actually managed to salvage a few blocks by repairing with epoxy. The we did get the tooling to actually bore the block out for a repair sleeve down in that area. Sad story about that is we used this tooling maybe twice before upper management decided to farm-out all major engine repairs so that set of tooling that cost around $5,000 twenty years ago sits on the shelf with no one left there that even has the faintest idea of what it is.