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nmmountainman
11-24-2007, 12:26 AM
Well, this is officially my first post:D
I am looking for suggestions on what kind and size of dozer to get.
I have 120 acres in the mountains of NM. What I primarily need a dozer for is to cut a road thru my land. I have mixed acres of ponderosa pine to oak brush that is flat to steep. I can also use a dozer to make ponds and rebuild areas that have been heavily erroded. I also have a lot of oak brush that needs cleared and a bit of logging to do. The worst rocked area has some pretty large volcanic rock. My budget is around 15k. I would like to find a nice older dozer for under 15k.
I guess it would be relevant to let everyone know that I have absolutely no experience w/ any sort of heavy equipment.
I have read some posts regarding jd, case, and cat dozers. I am thinking of one of the three. One thing I know I will need is a blade that tilts so that when the dozer is going sideways on the hill the blade is tilted cutting into the hill. Does this mean I need a "6 way blade". Whats that mean?
I have applied for a wildlife habitat inhancement program with the state of NM. One of the reasons for the road is to get better access to some of my land that is too heavily treed and needs to be thined. So at some point, large logging trucks will be driving this road to haul logs out.
I think I have rambled on long enough.***
Any thoughts, suggestions, comments, questions?
Thanks,
Fred

nmmountainman
11-24-2007, 12:30 AM
here are some pics of my land.

nmmountainman
11-24-2007, 12:52 AM
a couple of more pics

nmmountainman
11-24-2007, 12:56 AM
I should add that my land is sourrounded by national forest and one neighbor. My neighbor is great. He has a road grader and a case backhoe. He has helped me numerous times and has even cut a stretch of road to my camper w/ his road grader. Seeing the effort involved w/ him using his grader to cut a road, I thought it would be best to get a dozer, and if I got one it would complement his equipment well.
Thanks,
Fred

Deas Plant
11-24-2007, 07:59 AM
Hi, Fred.
Firstly, welcome to the site, so kindly provided for us by Steve Frazier.

Now, to what you need for your work. There are those who will have other ideas and that is fine by me. That is what this forum is all about, sharing ideas and information. It just means that you need to read it all and make up your own mind in the end.

I would suggest first a Cat dozer then probably a John Deere. You will most likely pay a bit of a premium for a Cat but they are mostly good reliable machines if they have been maintained and if you maintain them while you have them. I strongly recommend taking someone with a little more knowledge than you claim to have along with you to check out any 'possibles'.

Posting photos of any 'possibles' on this site, with particular emphasis on the track gear and general condition of the machine, will usually get you some fairly accurate evaluations.

6-Way or PAT blades are all very well and good for fine grading and for cutting tracks on sidehills where there are no obstacles but they are not, by and large. rough work tools. The blade angling rams tend not to like being asked to hold the blade in position while you dig out a stump or a rock with one corner of the blade. For this reason. I would suggest a normal straight/tilt dozer blade, preferably hydraulic controlled. There are not many cable controlled smaller dozers around anyway, especially not fitted with tilt cylinders on the blade.

I suggested Cat first and then JD because I have very little experience with Case machines and NONE of the later Case offerings. Case did have a rather smelly reputation around where I live and work DownUnder in the early days because they had some failings in their engineering. For this reason, I personally would steer clear of any early Case machines.

However, I have been told that Case have lifted their game in later years and are now not a bad machine. I don't know where the 'cut-off' date might be.

I have run a couple of JD 850 dozers and a JD 755 track loader, All are hydrostatic drive and all seemed to work well. I did think the JD 850 dozers were a little light on the front but that seemed to be a common 'disease' among smaller dozers back in the 1980's - early '90's. Even the Cat D7F suffered from it.

Hydrostatic drive is great but can be 'exxy' to repair. Powershift is pretty easy too, especially if you have not gotten used to hydrostatic. As for direct drive, it is amazing just how much busier you need to be to achieve the same work compared with either of the above transmissions but they are usually pretty reliable.

Somewhere around Cat D4-D5-D6 - 60 hp to 140 hp and 8 ton - 16 ton, size would probably be adequate. The smaller the machine, the longer it will take to get any particular done is all. The bigger it is, the harder it is to transport.

Please feel free to ask any further questions. As Squizzy would say, the only stupid question is the one you don't ask.

Hppe this helps.

EZ TRBO
11-24-2007, 10:31 AM
First off, love the pics, awesome land. Whats your plans for it? Looks like good hunting and some logging for heat, etc. I agree with Dea in the fact that a CAT would run you a bit more but maybe your most reliable. If your going to be removing trees I don't think a 6 way blade would be the best(in my opinion), go with a 4 way(up-down, and tilt). Another machine you could look at the has always been good for us is a TD-15 International/Dresser. They are a very nice size(D6/850 JD) and can be picked up for decent prices. If your going to do a bunch of logging a whinch might be in your market, or just some good log chains or cable. Good luck.
Trbo

nmmountainman
11-24-2007, 12:33 PM
Dea,Trbo, thanks for the advise and input. I am still a bit foggy on the 6way/4way/2way blade thing. Does the blade move differently for each? Can "tilt" be on any? I still need a bit more explaining to me. Remember, I know nothing about dozers. Dea, when you were speaking about hydrostatic/direct drive I am asuming you were talking about the "transmision"? Kind of like an automatic vs. manual transmission?
Am I being unreasonable to think I can get a quality dozer for 15k or less?
Trbo, my main plans for my land is to put a road that runs across it for easier access and to improve the wildlife/forest habitat by thining areas that are too thick w/ trees and probably planting trees as well in other areas. Putting in some ponds, taking out some of the sage and oakbrush and planting more native grasses. At some point I will rebuild the cabin. You can see in the last photo the old foundation to the old cabin that burned down out there.
What size dozer would you think would be appropriate. I probably won't do much tree clearing w/ the dozer, mostly road cutting and pond building.
Thanks,
Fred

tylermckee
11-24-2007, 04:03 PM
4 way lets you move up and down, and you can tilt it. 6 way means you get up and down, tilt, and you can adjust the angle, so you can sidecast material.

nmmountainman
11-24-2007, 04:23 PM
so the 6way is similar to what a road grader can do?
so both the 6way and the 4 way can tilt?
is there a 2 way?
thanks

Tigerotor77W
11-24-2007, 05:18 PM
A 6-way (PAT) blade still isn't quite like a motor grader; the motor grader has far more motion (both number of directions to move the blade and amount of each movement) than any bulldozer will.

There's no real two-way blade, as this means simply moving the blade up and down.

To think of the blades: place your wrist flat on a desk surface (or some other horizontal surface).

A four-way blade allows you to flip your wrist up (off the surface) and down in the same way you can angle your feet up or down. (That's two ways: one up, one down.) Again with your palm on the table, rotate your thumb side up (one more way) or the pinky side up (another way). That's called tilting. (It's like a plane rolling -- one wing dips down; the other one, up.) In the case of a dozer, you can keep the right corner of the blade's cutting edge on the ground while raising the left corner. (Or vice versa.)

A six-way adds two more to the above four. It also allows you to angle -- keeping the entire hand/palm on the surface, pivot your hand to the left and right. (This is like a pickup truck's snow plow blade being able to cast the snow to the left or right. These two complete the six-way nature of the blade.)

Does that make sense?

nmmountainman
11-24-2007, 05:50 PM
Absolutely!
Great explanation!
6 way blade has been cleared up for me. ;)
I have heard of "rippers" and "winch". I think I know what a winch is but the rippers. Are these the teeth looking things in the rear?
What about the hydrostatic and direct drive, what is the difference?
thanks,
Fred

Dozerboy
11-24-2007, 06:53 PM
Yes rippers are teeth and are very helpful in frozen, hard , or rocky ground.

Hydrostatic is a trans that has no gears or clutches one half of the transmission is a hydraulic pump and the other half is a hydraulic motor.

Direct is gear driven

nmmountainman
11-24-2007, 06:58 PM
is one a newer design over the other? is one easier to operate? is one typically prefered over the other or do each have there specific uses? is one more expensive than the other?
thanks,
Fred

Deas Plant
11-24-2007, 07:40 PM
Hi, Nmmountainman.
There are 3 main types of transmissions found in the great majority of tracked earthmoving machinery. They are:

Direct drive: You have a clutch, usually hand-operated and a manual shift gearbox and the operating procedure is very much like a manual-shift car or truck except that the clutch is usually hand-operated. For a long time now, most crawler tractors that were designed to be used as dozers, as distinct from being intended for agricultural use, have had a separate lever for changing from forward to reverse or vice versa. This lever is commonly called a forward-reverse lever (Surprise - surprise.) or a 'Johnson bar' (Don't ask me why 'cos I don't know.)

Powershift: Power shift transmissions consist of a torque converter (Fluid drive) and series of clutch packs, usually 5 in number (2 for direction and 3 for speed), all hydraulically controlled by a single transmission control lever and the throttle. In operation, you move the trans control lever to the desired position. This causes the transmission to select one of the direction clutches and one of the speed clutches and engage them. You then open the throttle which increases the pressure in the torque converter causing it to turn the output shaft and thus drive the tractor through the engaged clutches. Not unlike an automatic car or truck transmission.

Hydrostatic: These transmissions have 2 powerful hydraulic pumps in them - along with a lot of other mumbo-jumbo. These hydraulic pumps drive hydraulic (Hydrostatic) motors usually loacted immediately inboard of the drive sprockets in the tracks. There is a totally self-contained system for each track. This allows for one track to be driving slow and the other faster to give you full power to both tracks during turns. It also allows for one track to be forward and the other in reverse to give you spin turns with no forward or reverse movement - just rotating on the spot. This is a distinct advantage when trying to turn a loaded blade (or bucket on a track loader), when working in less than optimum traction conditions and for manoevering in tight spaces.

Most direct drive and powershift crawlers have 'clutch-and-brake' steering. Each track has a separate clutch and a brake. In operation, you disengage the clutch on the side to which you wish to turn, disconnecting power to that track. You them apply the brake with enough pressure to give you the rate of turn that you desire. This causes that track to be slowed or stopped, allowing the other track to drive the machine around the slowed/stalled track. This system has the distinct disadvantage of disconnecting half of your drive during turns.

Some crawler tractors have differential steering or planetary steering (2 different types) which will give power to both tracks during slow turns but still stop one track to make sharp turns.

Another system had high and low range AND forward and reverse for each track. This meant that you could make slow turns with power on both tracks or put one track in neutral while the other was still driving OR put one track in forward and the other reverse for spin turns.

There was even one large dozer (Euclid TC12/Terex 82-80) which had 2 engines, 2 transmissions and 2 sets of steering clutches and brakes, which gave a HEAP of different steering options, including slow and spin turns under full power. There was another large dozer (Komatsu D455A) which had one engine but 2 separate transmissions, each driving through its own steering clutch and brake system. This also gave a range of steering options, including full power slow and spin turns.

Most 6-way blades these days have the push arms mounted on the inside of the tracks in the form of a 'C'-frame with a pivot in the middle at the front. This allows the blade to be attached in such a way that it can tilt from side to side to allow digging with one corner of the blade more than the other.
It can also angle one side forward and the other back to allow material to be drifted across the blade while you are travelling forward.

The angle and tilt functions are controlled by hydraulic rams. Since the rams are located well in from the outer corners of the blade, it follows that any load on one corner of the blade is going to have a LOT of leverage over the ram on that side. This is why 6-way blades don't like being used to dig out stumps or rocks or to be used with one side tilted down to give better penetration in hard ground. 6-way blades are very versatile for lighter dozing work but you pay a bit of a premuim in that there are a LOT of wearing points, they are not all that robust and they do not move BULK material like a straight (2-way or 4-way) dozer.

A straight bulldozer blade (2-way or 4-way) has the push arms located outboard of the track frames, attached to push trunnions mounted on the track frames. There is a heavy box-section beam on each side transferring the tractor's 'push' to the lower outside corners of the blade, right where it can be of most use in heavy dozing applications. These blades are usually very robust and give good performance with very little trouble.

In its simplest form, it will have screw braces from the push arms up to the top corners of the blade. These screw braces control both fore-and-aft tip and side tilt. This means that you can -MANUALLY - tilt the blade forward to make it cut better or back to make it carry better. This done by screwing BOTH braces out or in. You can also screw ONE brace in or out to lower or raise that corner of the blade for tilted cuts.

An angle blade is one that can be manually angled to right or left to drift material across the blade. These blades can usually also be manually tilted by means of screw braces but only from side to side, not usually fore-and-aft.

I am attaching photos of:

A Cat D4E with angle blade angled.

A Cat D9G with a Komatsu D355A straight bulldozer blade with tilt cylinder.

A Cat D4 7U with a home-made PAT (Power angle and tilt) blade.

This last photo might give you some idea of why PAT blades are a little more 'delicate' than straight dozer blades.

Has information overload been achieved yet??????????????????????????

Hope this helps.

Deas Plant
11-24-2007, 08:12 PM
Hi, Nmmountainman.
Geez, yer gittin' bombarded, ain'tchyer? There was a few got their posts in between when I started writing mine and when I posted it.

Rippers: Here are a couple fo photos of 'backscratchers' - very handy pieces of gear to have on your machine. They come in a variety of shapes and sizes from 'Prehistoric' (See drawn cable ripper - 4th photo.) to 'TOO Technically Advanced'. (See vibrating ripper - 2nd photo. These are no longer made 'cos they shook tractors to bits faster than they shook rock to bits.) There are squillions of different ones in between. The variable pitch (4 barrel - photos 1 & 2.) rippers are extremely handy tools too.

digger132
11-24-2007, 09:15 PM
nmmountainman,

You have some beautiful property, for property maintenance, access roads,
minor logging, and your budget, I would suggest older 4 or 550 jd, 4 or 5 cat with a winch. I own 100 acres in WV 90% hardwood and it's a lot rougher terrain than yours. I've used an old jd 450c to cut all my roads for timber
I've cut. It takes a little longer, but speed costs money. For stumping and
some of the bigger jobs I rented a bigger dozer or track hoe. Good luck

surfer-joe
11-24-2007, 09:44 PM
What the hey, you don't need a new dozer, just one that runs decent and doesn't cost too much. So take a look at this one, which you may have seen already. It's posted elsewhere on this forum. It's not a bad looking dozer. It would likely work fine for you.

http://portland.craigslist.org/clc/grd/488281134.html

Here is what used HD16's have been going for at Ritchie:

ALLIS-CHALMERS HD16DC CRAWLER TRACTOR HD16DC6000 May - 2007 USA-TX 4,000 USD S/dozer, canopy, Carco winch

1974 ALLIS-CHALMERS HD16 SERIES B CRAWLER TRACTOR OBL Mar - 2007 USA-NC 4,250 USD A/dozer, canopy, 2 bbl MS ripper

Good Luck!

nmmountainman
11-24-2007, 10:07 PM
Dea-
Wow! Thanks for the explanations of the different transmissions! It would probably help if I had some experience actually operating each but at leas I have a better idea what each is. The pics you posted are great! Are rippers something that comes with the dozer or bought separately? I think after your explanation of the blades the 6 way may be best for my needs as I won't have many stumps to take out, my neighbor is good at that with his backhoe, most of my needs are for roadbuilding, so it would be nice to push dirt to one side or the other, and my terrain isn't too terrible with rocks.
Digger132-
Thanks for the complement! I think the size dozers your refering to are about what I have been thinking. Even if it takes me a bit longer because its a smaller machine, I will still be able to get the job done and probably spend less in the end, especially since the time I spend building my roads will be on my free time which I enjoy being out in the woods anyways, and gives me a great excuse to be out there! :D
Surfer-Joe-
Thanks for the thread! I haven't seen it yet. Looks like a great price! Unfortunately I need to save up for a while. I am probably looking to buy in spring 08' - 09'. But, looking at prices will allow me to get a better idea of the value or worth of different models. And at this stage I am really trying to lean as much as I can about the function so I get the right piece of equipment for my needs.
**
It seems like a smaller JD or Cat w/ a 6 way blade and ripper might be the way to go for me. With a 15k budget I should be able to find a good dozer right? Seems like it when I see adds like what Surfer-Joe pointed out.
What do most people prefer as far as the transmissions?
Thanks for all the input and suggestions. I am learning fast! :)
Fred

nmmountainman
11-24-2007, 10:12 PM
Surfer-Joe-
Is it possible to search craigslist without searching by city? Seems like you have to go to a particular city and then search for dozer.
Thanks,
Fred

Dozerboy
11-25-2007, 12:55 AM
Its only by city

pwrstroke6john
11-25-2007, 02:40 AM
You can find nice 15-20000lb dozers with the 6 way for under 20000, when I bought my 84 Cat D3B I paid 18500 for it at an auction.

For prices you may want to look at: http://www.rockanddirt.com/

http://www.equipmenttraderonline.com/

http://www.machinerytrader.com/

nmmountainman
11-25-2007, 12:23 PM
Thanks for the links!
Great sites to look at!
Fred

ol' Grump
11-26-2007, 12:14 AM
Seeing as how your neighbor has a grader, he's probably reasonably familiar with dozers too. My suggestion would be to see if he could be persuaded to come along with you when you go looking at 'em. .he more than likely knows what to look for as far as wear on tracks, sprockets and rollers, etc.

Older Cats with manual transmissions can usually be bought fairly cheap and those would be my first suggestion, if for no other reason than the cost of repairing hydrostatic and automatic transmissions and parts. The older stuff can usually be fixed easily (with a little sweat and muscle) whereas the newer stuff is a bit more complicated and quite often requires a dealer's shop to repair.

I've got a 1947 or so D4 7U Cat with a manual angle blade and winch. While a newer unit with all the bells and whistles would be nice, I can do anything with the old critter than a newer one can do. .just not as fast sometimes. I do have to admit, with a master clutch, manual steering clutches, foot brakes AND the blade control can make ya feel like a one armed man papering a billboard in a windstorm at times!

Pushing over trees can be fun . .as long as ya don't get hung up on the root ball. And with a winch, it's easy to drag trees into a landing versus just pulling 'em with the tow bar. AND. .if ya do get stuck, you can generally pull yourself out with the winch. Plus, I can haul it on the same trailer that I use for the backhoe.

All in all, if I were to try to start a business or work commercially, I'd get a newer Cat but as long as my time is my own, I'll stick with the older stuff.

Are ya totally confused now?:D

Countryboy
11-26-2007, 10:11 PM
Welcome to Heavy Equipment Forums nmmountainman! :drinkup

Countryboy
11-26-2007, 10:11 PM
Welcome to Heavy Equipment Forums ol' Grump! :drinkup

nmmountainman
11-30-2007, 12:02 AM
So I had some interesting advise thrown at me over the weekend.
My girlfriends dad has worked all his life w/ heavy equipment, mainly for the state of Co, but more recently for different companies building roads for new subdivisions.
I asked him what his advise would be on getting a dozer. He suggested a motor grader instead. He said the old jd 570A ? was a grader way ahead of its time and could probably be purchased at a reasonable price as they have been around a while. He especailly liked the A as it was one of the first articulating models. He thinks even after the road is made on my land the grader would be of better use to have around than the dozer. Also he said that he personaly has over 5k hrs on one and could really do some good work and show me how to use it. He has experience on some larger cat dozers but felt the grader was the way to go for me. He said it would be better to rent a dozer if I really needed it for something the grader couldn't do.
What do you guys think?
He kind of has me sold on the idea of a grader.

NW Crawler
11-30-2007, 12:17 PM
I would definetly have someone with some experience look at any piece of machinery your are considering for purchase. An experienced mechanic is a good option. Fixing or replacing parts or components on these machines can get expensive very quickly.
And watch out for the auction dozers, if it's 50yrs. old and has a nice paint job don't buy it.

biggixxerjim
11-30-2007, 04:32 PM
And I would stay away from the grader. Thats somewhat of a specialty piece and all it's really good for is fine grading, and from the sounds of things, you wont be doing much of this. it's also one of the most difficult machines to master, and with you saying you dont have any experience, I would definitely suggest a dozer, maybe an old D5 with the drawbars holding the blade on the side of the tracks. A ripper or winchg would be a nice addition.

North Texan
11-30-2007, 06:33 PM
Have you considered a skid-steer loader? They are simple to operate, and they can do a little bit of everything.

SouthOnBeach
11-30-2007, 07:41 PM
if you're gonna push dirt and cut/build roads i think a dozer is the only way to go, not a grader. we have a cat d3b around here and love it. granted a bigger machine would be faster at times but other places the smaller is better. cat, deer and case are all good machines IMO. after having a power 6way blade i'd never want to go back. in an older model i would look for a powershift trans. if you can be picky peddle steer is really nice to have.

have you ever thought about a mini excavator with a blade? really good for cutting in new roads into a hillside and diggin out things.

nmmountainman
11-30-2007, 08:59 PM
Wow! Thanks for all the input. I havn't thought of a mini excavator or a skid steer loader. They would both be able to cut roads on hill sides? I really had my mind made up on a d3 size dozer prior to speaking w/ my girl's dad.
I guess I have some more research to do:)

Cat287B
11-30-2007, 09:13 PM
Don't buy anything. Just hire me, I think I have an opening in 08 or 09
Pete

Countryboy
11-30-2007, 09:29 PM
Welcome to Heavy Equipment Forums Cat287B! :drinkup

Deas Plant
11-30-2007, 11:21 PM
Hi, Nmmountainman.
If my memory serves me right, there was some reference a while back in this thread to your neigbhour having a grader and a backhoe. If that is the case, it puzzles me why YOU would also want a grader as per your girlfriend's father's suggestion.

As Biggixxerjim mentioned, graders are a specialty machine and they are also more of an instrument than a 'bullocking' machine. Graders are primarily designed for finishing work and are not nearly as useful for grubbing out rocks and stumps as a dozer or a track loader. Quite aside from which, the 'sharp' end of a dozer or a loader is right at the front, which is great for clearing and grubbing, for filling in eroded ditches, etc., and any number of other jobs. Graders have this awkward habit of their front axle getting to the work before the 'sharp bit'. This can be a bit of a handicap in the bush or in amongst rocks and gullies, etc..

Personally, I'd stick with the original idea of a dozer or maybe a track loader, either one fitted with rear-mounted rippers. And make sure you have someone with a LOT of experience in such matters look over any 'possibles' before laying your money on the line.

Hope this helps.

nmmountainman
12-01-2007, 12:06 AM
Hi Deas!
It does help. My neighbor is more than willing to help me without charging me for his time. Your correct, he has a backhoe and a grader, thats why I thought a dozer would be a good complementing peice of equipment. My girlfriend's father is just weiry about buying a dozer that then brakes down and feels a grader's overall condition is easier to identify. He also has a lot of time on a grader and thinks once your done w/ your dozer work its just going to sit, were a grader can be used to clear snow etc.
My feeling is a dozer would be the most appropriate piece of equipment but my girlfriends dad just got my rethinking.
I should also mention I have a lot of tree transplanting ideas. I can buy forest permits to take live trees and replant them on my land. If I had some sort of tractor w/ a tree spade I could "re-forest" some of my more arid looking areas. My girlfriends dad also mentioned he felt a backhoe would be a more usefull piece of equipment than a dozer and with ideas of tree transplanting a backhoe could be usefull. I think there are some backhoes that have detachable hoes were maybe i could attach a tree spade. Do you know anything about this?
My land is surrounded by thousands of acres of national forest with all different species of trees, and i would like to transplant some new species into my land. Also, some of my more dense areas of forest have hundreds of smaller trees that would love to be transplanted in an area were they will get more light, so I can do some tree transplanting on my own land even.
The dozer idea is to get a road in for better access on my land, brush clearing, errosion correcting and maybe pond building, but I also have dreams of tree transplanting.:D
Am I a dreamer? :o

Deas Plant
12-01-2007, 09:01 AM
Hi, Fred.
Are you a dreamer?????????? I faintly suspect that being a dreamer is a part of the human condition.

The tree spade bit puts a whole different complexion on things.

Most of the tree spades that I have seen have been fitted to front end loaders, either track or 4wd. Not saying that one couldn't be fitted to a backhoe but most halfway decent loaders have a bit more lifting capacity than a TLB.

Quite aside from which, a loader, of whatever 'footwear style', will have you finding uses for it all year round while a dozer would spend a large slice of its time after you've completed your main work just sitting in your shed eating its head off and achieving nothing. You can cut tracks and roads with a loader, especially a track loader with a 4-in-1 bucket and rippers. It may not push bulk dirt like a dozer but it can sure push down trees that would give a dozer a real hard time. It may not grade roads like a grader but it sure digs out rocks better than a grader. It beats the h**l out of both a dozer and grader when it comes to lifting things, including tress withe tree spade. A loader with a 4-in-1 bucket, especially a track loader, may not be the best at any kind of work that another machine can do BUT it sure beats most of the others for all-round usefulness and handiness.

Hope this helps.

nmmountainman
12-01-2007, 12:25 PM
Deas-
Thanks for the track loader suggestion. What does a 4 in 1 bucket do or mean? Can the bucket tilt to cut into hillsides? Can a trackloader be fitted w/ a tree spade or a hoe?
Thanks

tylermckee
12-01-2007, 02:08 PM
http://www.eastwindtractors.com.au/imagestractors/yct306S-6Lfel4.jpg

thats a 4 in 1 bucket.

and as deas said, most every tree spade i have ever seen was on some sort of front end loader, be it a 4wd, skid steer, or track loader. I have seen track loaders with backhoes mounted, not sure how usefull they are though.

Deas Plant
12-01-2007, 07:02 PM
Hi, Nmmountainman.
Virtually any loader that is big enough to carry the tree spade in question can be fitted with one.

No, a 4-in-1 bucket does not tilt sideways but don't let that throw you. You quite quickly learn other ways of achieving the desired results with a little imagination.

Yes, many/most track loaders can be fitted with a backhoe. It may take a little more effort with some than with others. However, you may like to think about duplication of equipment again here, since your neighbour already has a backhoe. And personally, I think a ripper would be a more useful tool for you anyway, especially in the early stages when you are doing your road building and clearing/cleaning up. I'm thinking of the rocks I saw in your photos and of being able to rip around bigger trees to loosen them up.

A 4-in-1 bucket is a multi-purpose loader bucket in that it can be used in several differnt ways.

It can dig and load just like a conventional general purpose loader bucket.

When opened a little and stood up in the normal digging position, it can scrape up a thin layer of material with the dozer blade on the bottom of the back of the bucket and that material is held and carried by the floor of the bucket. When the bucket is full, you can then roll it back while closing the floor and carry that material away.

You can open the bucket up further so that the floor is well clear of the ground and use the back of the bucket as a dozer.

You can open the bucket right up and use it to drag back out of corners or to reach up and trim batters, etc..

You can use it as a clamshell, by dropping the open bucket over a pile of material, a rock or a stump, closing the floor while standing the bucket up and picking your material or object up to carry it away.

You can also grade very nicely, thank you, with the bucket in either the scraper position, #1, or fully opened and laid flat so that both the dozer edge and the back of the bucket floor are on the ground. This in effect gives you a skid plate to stabilise your dozer cutting edge.

You can use them to pick up logs by opening the bucket up, placing it over the log and closing it tightly.

If fitted with teeth, you have a built-in rake for cleaning up sticks and twigs or for raking rocks and roots out of fill.

They will also carry what we call a 'spreader bar' very nicely. You can see photos of a spreade bar and descriptions of its use here:

http://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=4405&page=2&highlight=fine+grading

This link will take you straight to page 2 where all the relevant stuff is.

Hope this helps.

Cat287B
12-01-2007, 08:19 PM
Heyif yournot going to hire me do like that other guy said and buy a skid steer. And if you want the best get a Cat 287B
I still have a couple of openings left end of 08 early 09
Pete

Dozerboy
12-01-2007, 09:14 PM
I would get a grader before a Skid steer he's build a road not doing landscaping.

Cat287B
12-01-2007, 09:38 PM
Yeh but I'llbet he'd rather have smooth road

biggixxerjim
12-01-2007, 09:51 PM
Heyif yournot going to hire me do like that other guy said and buy a skid steer. And if you want the best get a Cat 287B
I still have a couple of openings left end of 08 early 09
Pete

Ok dont listeen to the idiots that tel lyou to buy a skid ster or a mini ex..... skid steers are more or less landscape machines, and the mentiion of a mini ex almost made me laugh.

what the hell kind of road are you gonna cut with a mini ex?? Just to let you know, rubber tracks arent good for dozing jobs :Pointhead

Just because it's what they have or it's all they have run doesnt mean it's the machine to buy!!!!!!!

Cat287B
12-01-2007, 10:00 PM
Ok dont listeen to the idiots that tel lyou to buy a skid ster or a mini ex..... skid steers are more or less landscape machines, and the mentiion of a mini ex almost made me laugh.

what the hell kind of road are you gonna cut with a mini ex?? Just to let you know, rubber tracks arent good for dozing jobs :Pointhead

Just because it's what they have or it's all they have run doesnt mean it's the machine to buy!!!!!!!

If youget a chance you might want to test one out. Just cause there only 10k# dont think just for hauling mulch.

Deas Plant
12-01-2007, 10:52 PM
Hi, Cat287B.
I agree that skid steers are very useful and versatile machines but, IF you are fair and open-minded, I think even you would HAVE to agree that your average skid steer is going to have a little trouble dealing with some of the country that Nmmountainman showed in his posted photos earlier in this thread. And just how much of a tree spade will your average skid steer carry, especially when it also has to pick up the weight of the tree along with the tree spade?

Now I know that Nmmountainman did say that he likes being out in the woods but, at the end of a long day in the saddle, it is nice to be able to see some respectable results for your efforts. You will see 'just a tad' more result if you are using a dozer or a track loader than you will see if you are using a skid steer, no?

We get people like you all the time coming along and telling owners of blocks of land that they can level a house site on the block for them. Now this is all very well when the cut/fill is around 4"-6" - IN SAND OR LOAM. It is a whole different ball game when it is 4' - 6' IN SOLID CLAY OR SHALE.

We will do a 4" - 6" cut with a Cat 943, levelled with the laser, in about 3 hours, from starting stripping the grass to loading on the float. At $130 an hour, that's $390 (3 hour minimum hire.), plus float. On the same house site, a skid steer will be there ALL DAY and probably some of tomorrow too. On some sites, you would be lucky to have the grass stripped in 3 hours. At $75.00 an hour, given eight hours (Being charitable.), that would be $600.00. Now I'm no astute business man or student of economics but there does seem to be a slight imbalance there.

And, I would guess from his photos that Nmmountainman is going to have a few places where he is faced with susbstantial cuts and fills in something other than cotton wool.

So let's not have any more of this garbage about buying or hiring a skid steer for his sort of work. Let's agree that skidsteers have their place and that bulk earthworks AIN'T IT. IMHO, and with the greatest of respect, I think you are only airing your ignorance and inexperience by saying what you are saying.

Just my 0.02.

tylermckee
12-01-2007, 11:14 PM
doing the kind of work Nmmountainman wants to do, using a skid steer, would make me cry.

Deas Plant
12-01-2007, 11:40 PM
Hi, Tyler McKee.
I'm with you, but then having to use a skid steer almost anywhere has that effect on me.

Another thing that might reduce me to tears if I was a 'being-reduced-to-tears' kind of person would be people who come on here and sound off about using a skid steer or a mini excavator for work that obviously isn't suited to a skid steer or a mini excavator.

Cat287B
12-02-2007, 07:38 AM
Sorry about ruffling some feathers. It does kind of remind when they came out with hyd excavators. All the drag line guys said no way the hyd equipment could ever do as good as the trusty old drag line. After all this is how it's always been done. I'll leave you alone now
Pete

Deas Plant
12-02-2007, 08:20 AM
Hi, Cat287B.
I have to say that there is no comparison between the hydraulic excavator/dragline situation and what you were advocating. It doesn't take much of an eye for a job and machine capabilities to work out that what Nmmountainman has in mind is no task for a skid steer. You only have to look at the trees that would need to be cleared to get any sort of road that will take logging trucks into that country. That is NOT skid steer work in the language of any man that I know who knows what he is talking about.

Then there are the grades and the side hill cuts AND the rocks - again, no place for a skid steer. And I've already said my piece about skid steers and tree spades.

I think most folks here would agree that we want the best information possible in answer to any queries that might be posted. Now you might personally believe that a skid steer WILL do that work as efficiently as a reasonable sized dozer, say a Cat D5B or D6C, or a track loader like perhaps a Cat 941 or 943, machines that may be in the quoted price range or close to it. IF you do, may I suggest that you find a situation in similar conditions where you can pit yourself and your skid steer up against one of the machines mentioned above and see how you fare. I KNOW which one my money would be on and it won't be your skid steer.

If you are open-minded and willing to learn, there is a LOT of good information posted in the various forums on this site. I honestly hope that you will stay - with an open mind - and both learn and contribute. From your posts to date, you do seem to have some rapport with skid steers and may well be able to add some good information where it is wanted. I also hope that you will quickly learn that 'bovine excrescence', while making good garden fertiliser, does not have much place here. I also hope that you will quickly learn to differentiate between 'the good oil' and the manure.

Enough of skid steers and their capabilities or lack of them. You may like to take a look at this thread's last few posts by Jughead and myself. See the link below.

What do you carry with you?

http://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=53499&posted=1#post53499

Over to you.

biggixxerjim
12-02-2007, 02:29 PM
If youget a chance you might want to test one out. Just cause there only 10k# dont think just for hauling mulch.

Ive ran many skid steers, great smaller material handlers, but not earth movers by any means

nmmountainman
12-03-2007, 12:53 AM
Guess I should probably pipe in since I did start this thread.
As I said ealier in this thread I have 0 experience operating any sort of heavy equipment. And at this stage of life I am a meager pen pusher for an insurance company, but some of my first work experience was on constructions sites so I have seen what different equipment was used for on my old jobsites.
If a bobcat is a skid steer, it isn't going to work for me and my plans. It could probably cut some of my road, granted it would take MUCH longer than a grader or a dozer, but there are a couple of areas w/ large volcanic rock and other areas were quite a few stumps will need to be taken out. Thats why I started this thread as "dozer suggestions" because I will need some sort of earth moving equipment. My neighbor has helped to start my road by cutting around a 200 ft begining He used his grader (not sure what kind but in comparison to a jd 570 its around half again as big if not twice as big) and it took half a day. He had to just bearly skim the ground time after time until the top 6 inches or so came off, then progress came much faster. So if a large grader took that much time to cut 200ft a skid steer would take forever. I have seen skid steers equiped with tree spades but they won't move much of a tree. My land being in the middle of national forest, I have the ability to take much larger, mature, trees to transplant, if I have the right equipment.
I still need to look more into track loaders. One nice thing I have seen is that some do have the hoe on the back. I know my neighbor does have a backhoe but especially for transplanting trees it would be nice to use my own hoe to dig a hole and then go get a tree with a tree spade and drop it in my freshly cut hole. My neighbor is very friendly and willing to help me, but I could litterly transplant hundreds if not thousands of trees, thats just more backhoe work than I would be willing to ask of him, especially when I am not paying him.
A track loader could also be nice because I will need to move a lot of dirt to fill in some areas of errosion and to build up areas of the road. I have a dump trailer that would work nicely with the loader. The combination of the two could work well to fill in some areas.
If the loader bucket can't tilt, I would image that would make cutting on a hillside much more difficult. But if I can get a level stating point I guess you just keep going from there?
Unfortunately I only have a finite budget for whatever peice of equpment I get. I want the most equipment that can do the most for me with that finite budget. I probably won't have enough saved up for at least a year, but when that time comes I want to have educated myself as much as I can.
I do want to thank everyone for all their input as I have already learned a lot. But keep coming with the suggestions and input.
Thanks,
Fred :)

pwrstroke6john
12-03-2007, 01:07 AM
for everything that you wish to do youre not going to find just one machine. With youreself having a limited budget dyou might want to purchase a dozer, cut all your roads, then sell it and purchase a loader.

Deas Plant
12-03-2007, 07:19 AM
Hi, Fred.
I'm just a little mystified here. Please help me if I'm not understanding this quite right. You want a tree spade so that you can dig whole trees out and transport them to a new hole in the ground which you have pre-dug - with a backhoe? Now I may be a little dense but it occurs to me that IF a tree spade is capable of digging out a whole tree, cutting the roots in the process, then there is a slightly better than faint chance that it ought to be able to dig a hole where there ain't any tree roots to hinder it BEFORE it goes off to dig up the tree that is going into said hole. Not so?

And, IF this IS possible, isn't it also possible that a hole dug in this way might better fit the root ball of the tree dug out by the same tree spade?

You see, when it comes to tree spades and the use thereof, I am a greenhorn. I have seen several mounted on 4wd and track loaders but never seen them in action nor used one. However, I have a little difficulty understanding why a machine which can dig out a tree, wholus bolus, and transport it to a new home can't dig the hole to receive said tree before it goes off to fetch said tree.

Is there anyone out there with some experience of these jiggers who can enlighten us?

I disagree with Pwrstroke6john about no one machine being capable of doing all that you have mentioned. With a little edumakayshun and some imagination, a 10-12 ton track loader will do it all. I reckon I could also do it with an older Cat 950 4wd articulated loader, especially if it had a set of 'hooks' (backscratchers - rippers) on the back. A 4wd loader would be much more mobile around your property than a track machine, with less wearing parts (tracks vs wheels) but it would be a little less able in slippery conditions, not that track loaders are anywhere near a dozer in slippery conditions, just a bit better than wheels. However, the BIG plus of a 4wd loader would be that it would injure the landscape less when turning than a track loader would, if that is a consideration for you.

Construct'O
12-03-2007, 09:37 AM
One thing you need to also think about is if you have limited bubget,that just because you buy machine, that it will be dependable to finish your job without repairs needed.

I see it often,person buys used machine thinking they will flip the machine when job was done.Machine breaks down then here comes the big repair bill.Gave 20k for machine bargain!!!!!!!!! Spent 10k on repairs.:eek:

Just something more to consider before jumping in feet first.If you have or get more money then you will ever need .No problem! Good luck:usa

GaryKelley
12-03-2007, 10:48 AM
of course [B]I[B]don't have first hand knowledge, but there are numerous accounts of all this work that is being done mechanically, was at one time done by hand...or by a team(s) of animals....so, to say something can not be done with this piece or that piece of equipment, isn't quite accurate. Heck, if you take your time, and do it just right, you can drive a 7" ring shanked spike into concrete with a wine glass.....of course the wine glass is in your left hand..full of wine...(till it's empty), and a pin setter in your right hand doing the work...

nmmountainman
12-03-2007, 11:24 AM
Deas-
Your right, the tree spade would dig an almost perfect hole for a tree that has also been lifted out of the ground w/ the tree spade. The problme is that a lot of the areas were I will be planting the trees is super rocky and very hard ground. I'm not so sure a tree spade will dig into it. Some of the places I will take the trees from is more earthy valley floor type material and the spade should have an easier time in this type of material.
But like you I havn't worked a tree spade or at this point talked with many people that have. When I thru out the idea of using a tree spade to transplant trees to my neighbor, he looked at me like I was nuts and he's the one that said a spade would have a hard time digging in our land. He might be wrong though. But I think he is basing this feeling off of the difficultying just digging with his backhoe.
I have been looking at both 4wd and track loaders on some of the equipment sales sites. I did consider the fact that wheels won't do as much landscape damage as tracks. I think thats an important thing with what I am trying to do. And truthfully when I do buy my machine, I will likely baby it and not use it if it is even bearly sprinklying outside, so lack of traction due to slippery/wet earth probably wont be an issue. My neighbor has an enormous "watershed barn". He has tons of room inside and has offered for a long time that should I ever buy some piece of equipment I can store it in his barn until I get my own built. I even have the keys to all his gates and barns. So whatever I get will be babied and kept inside.:D
What are some models of 4wd loaders that could be found w/in my budget yet get the job done?

Construct'O-
I have considered the thought that I may have some major repairs after purchasing whatever equipment I find. My girlfriend's father talked about this over and over. He has also seen it first hand with his companies he has worked for. I know he would be willing to go with me to look at anything I find. But, what he said is that you never can predict what shape a machine is really in. He did say he wouldn't buy anything from anyone that can't show regular maintanance documentation. One thing he suggested is if a owner has a good working, reliable machine and is trying to sell it, that maybe I can talk them into leasing to own. His reasoning is that anyone w/ a machine that is ready to brake down and they know it wouldn't even consider leasing because they just want to be done with their ready to brake down machine. Wereas anyone with a reliable piece of equipment would be more willing to lease to own as they know the machine has a lot of life left in it.
I think its a great idea, but I would think most people who are trying to sell something don't want to lease it because they may need all of the cash.
Fred

d4c24a
12-03-2007, 12:09 PM
here are a few pictures ,i have never used a tree spade ,but have planted some mature nursery grown trees ,to plant these a hole 2M X 2M X 1.5 was dug then wooden railway sleepers were buried with anchor points and wire bonds attached ,the hole was then filled with soil to the desired depth and the tree put ,the bonds then crossed the root ball and were tightened with turnbuckles a flexible pipe was then put in to aid watering and the hole backfield

Deas Plant
12-03-2007, 01:16 PM
Hello, GaryKelley.
Welcome to the forum.

You may not wish to appear as if you're sounding off but you are doing a remarkable job of appearing to be sounding off.

Most of us already know that it is not usually a good idea to talk in 'absolutes' about any machine or situation because someone with a different experience or understanding may well come along and shoot holes in your post. One or two people who had a habit of doing that in the recent past don't seem to appear here much any more.

Hope you enjoy your time here.

Cat420
12-03-2007, 03:23 PM
I'll add another vote for a track loader with a backhoe. You said you don't have much experience, so my thinking is use a crawler type machine that moves slower and doesn't bounce around over uneven terrain to the extent a wheeled machine will. You can work at an easy pace and not frustrate yourself. I enjoy every opportunity I get to use something with tracks, because they tend to ride over the small bumps instead of traveling up and down like tires. Tires are great for speed, but when you're trying to smooth a driveway and they get started with the bouncing, it's not much fun.

You can use the backhoe to dig a flat spot to get started on the really uneven spots, since the bucket won't angle to the side. The backhoe attachment will also give you added counterweight for using a tree spade in the future. If you find it isn't used much, you can sell the attachment and use the money for fuel or something.

A dozer would have done most of what you described, until you mentioned carrying and loading dirt. Sure you could eat soup on a plate if nothing else is around, but why order it special, same thing with moving lots of dirt a long way with the dozer, you'll just end up with a mess. Hands down something with a bucket is called for and like mentioned above, I prefer using tracks instead of tires for grading, so that only leaves one good option in my mind if only able to pick one machine.

A quick search turned up this, I'm sure there's more like it out there.
Greensboro, NC


$13,000
1983 JOHN DEERE 455A TRACK LOADER, WITH QUICK DETACH BACKHOE, ENCLOSED CAB, GOOD CONDITION, $13000, 336-317-2606, GREENSBORO(336) 317-2606

Hopefully that helps and wasn't just rambling.

nmmountainman
12-04-2007, 04:43 PM
d4c24a-
Thanks for the pics. Most of the pics you provided are of larger tree spades. Likely I will need something of this size vs. the smaller ones you see on ebay.
cat420-
Thats good advise about the track vs wheeled loaders. I have also noticed the 4wd loaders seem to be more expensive on average. I have located many reasonably priced track loaders like the one you mentioned. Also I havn't seen any wheeled loaders w/ hoes on the back.

I would still like to hear from someone about tree transplanting experience.
Someone mentioned earlier in my thread that I could always get a dozer, do all my dozer work, then sell it for another piece of equipment. I hadn't really thought about this until it was suggested. I could always cut my road, maybe dig a pond, then sell the dozer. My neighbor would have no problem maintaining my road w/ his grader. And with the money from the dozer I could get a track loader w/ a hoe.

Would a tree spade go on the bucket end of the loader or the hoe end?
Thanks,
Fred

d4c24a
12-04-2007, 04:50 PM
heres a picture of a smaller loader mounted tree spade

hvy 1ton
12-04-2007, 05:05 PM
The tree spade will either be loader mounted or a trailered. A loader-mount will be more maneuverable than a trailered one, but a trailered one could move bigger trees. I have use trailered tree spear with 90hp tractors before, and it worked well. It would slide around in the mud and hillsides.

nmmountainman
12-04-2007, 06:00 PM
D4C24A-
Keep the pics coming! Is the bucket taken off and the tree spade put on? Do you have to have a 4 in 1 bucket for it to work w/ a tree spade?
Hvy1ton-
I have no tree spade experience but I would prefer the loader mounted tree spade as they seem more mobile and a lot of the trees I will need to plant will be planted on hillsides.

I noticed that pic of the loader mounted tree spade was on a wheeled loader. Are tree spades put on track loaders as well?

SouthOnBeach
12-04-2007, 07:05 PM
Ok dont listeen to the idiots that tel lyou to buy a skid ster or a mini ex..... skid steers are more or less landscape machines, and the mentiion of a mini ex almost made me laugh.

what the hell kind of road are you gonna cut with a mini ex?? Just to let you know, rubber tracks arent good for dozing jobs :Pointhead

Just because it's what they have or it's all they have run doesnt mean it's the machine to buy!!!!!!!

I should clarify my sizing of a mini ex. I was thinking of a 12k or larger machine or a small full size ex. A little 6k one isn’t going to do a single thing. A skid steer would be a joke for cutting a road IMO.

Cat287B
12-04-2007, 07:58 PM
Mr Mountainman,
I've got a couple of questions about your land. How much of it needs to be thinned? How valuble is that timber in your area? I know it'sdifferent in all parts of the country but some times the logger will build his own road to get at the timber. Have you talked to a logger yet, have they seen the land? Depending on timber values you might be able to do some horse trading with the logger.
Pete

td15c
12-04-2007, 08:02 PM
GO with a dresser 15c easy to work on with hand tools,no pullers needed. parts are easy to get new or used. big enough to push trees and small enough
to do grade.

Countryboy
12-04-2007, 08:06 PM
Welcome to Heavy Equipment Forums td15c! :drinkup

td15c
12-04-2007, 08:23 PM
Welcome to Heavy Equipment Forums td15c! :drinkup

thanks:drinkup
also what ever dozer you buy go with straight tilt blade you wont tare it up as easy as a 6 way

nmmountainman
12-05-2007, 01:18 AM
cat287b-
I have walked my land w/ 2 loggers, a state forester, and 2 dept of natural resource agents. The loggers didn't feel my timber that needs to be thinned would be profitable for them to bring all their equipment out to do the work. They wanted more money on the table. They suggested I speak w/ the state forester and dept of natural resorces. Between the two the Dept of natural resources has some great programs that can help someone like me. I applied for a program called the whip program. Wildlife Habitat Enhancement Program. Its purpose is to reimburse people or provide some funds to help landowners with land that has value to the local wildlife to better the land for the wildlife. Examples would be thinning timber that is too thick and is a fire hazzard, thinning areas of brush and sage to provide more grassland, building ponds and water holes, etc. I won't know if I will win as they will make decisions in May. But if I were to they may help me financially to get everything I want accomplished.
I would prefer to cut the roads myself as I will put them exactly were I want them, but I will say that when I walked the land with them they felt the road should go exactly were I wanted it to go anyways. They do have a dozer and I did some negotiating with them, but ultimately they felt it will cost them more in effort and time to cut the road than what my timber was worth. Most of my timber is ponderosa pine, but its not the biggest and there is probably only 30-40 acres of timber to thin. They said the local mills are looking for larger timber. They felt it would be best to have it chipped for wood stoves? Something like that, and the mill that is supposed to be putting in the chipper doesn't have the set up yet? They said the other option was to take it into colorado as the mills are looking for timber to make mine shafts? Again, something like that. I just know I was expecting them to do back flips to be able to cut my timber and them to pay me to cut my timber, but they wern't even interested in all my timber in exchange for the road to be cut. :(
So thats why I am looking into equipment to cut my own road. Already having a road my make it more desirable and worth their time to cut my timber.

surfer-joe
12-05-2007, 08:47 PM
Well, here ya go. Just the ticket for land clearing. This website courtesy of OneWelder, who posted it elsewhere on this forum.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Terex-82-80-%20Dozer_W0QQitemZ250194750261QQihZ015QQcategoryZ9 7121QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Great old machine and it would clear land like nobodies business, but I'd hate to buy fuel for it.

nmmountainman
12-05-2007, 10:17 PM
surfer-joe-
thats a monster of a machine! I think I would prefer something a bit smaller though, although I am sure it would work well.

surfer-joe
12-05-2007, 11:04 PM
He-He! It was just a thought......

Deas Plant
12-06-2007, 07:07 AM
Hello, TD15c.
Just wondering if you might clear up a couple of mysteries for an older beginner like me. Would you please tell me how big a dozer has to be before it is too big for grading? Also, how small does one have to be before it is too small for pushing trees?

Hope you can help.

td15c
12-06-2007, 07:52 AM
Hello, TD15c.
Just wondering if you might clear up a couple of mysteries for an older beginner like me. Would you please tell me how big a dozer has to be before it is too big for grading? Also, how small does one have to be before it is too small for pushing trees?

Hope you can help.

well if you want to push out a 30'' dia oak and than get it up out of the hole and to the brush pile with d4 size dozer good luck. and if you want to put a laser on your blade and grade a building site to the inch a d8 sizes is to big.a d6 size is not perfect for either one. but as a small contactor it is a good alround dozer.

Turbo21835
12-06-2007, 08:54 AM
Ive cleared trees with a Cat D7H. I wouldnt go after trees with anything much smaller than a D6. As far as grading goes ive seen guys "finish" with a D10R. Granted you can get things withing +- 1/4inch but 3 inches +- is not out of the question with a good operator. With your neighbor having a backhoe and a grader a D5 or D6 size machine should work for you. You can team up when it comes to some of the bigger stumps and brush. He can use the backhoe to dig and push and you can push with the dozer. When it comes to the road you can rough things in for the grader. Take all the big cuts and fills, and he touches up behind you. Sounds like you got a good neighbor. With a dozer you guys could accomplish a lot.

Josh

Krackerjack9
12-06-2007, 10:37 AM
These have a option on them not seen very often, its to keep out your pesky IED shrapnel and the ocassional sniper shot.

nmmountainman
12-06-2007, 10:41 AM
turbo21835-
I do have a good neighbor. I am starting to lean towards getting a dozer to get the rough road work in, maybe put in a pond, and then go with a loader/hoe combo and buy a tree spade for it. My neighbor has suggested to me numerous times how nice it would be to have a smaller sized dozer out there for us. I think if I got one he would be even more willing to help me out as I could help him w/ various tasks with the dozer.

nmmountainman
12-06-2007, 10:44 AM
Krackerjack9-
That looks like it would be incredibly HOT! Is it like an oven in that cab or what? Hey, if it makes our soliders safe I think its great!

SouthOnBeach
12-06-2007, 07:06 PM
turbo21835-
I do have a good neighbor. I am starting to lean towards getting a dozer to get the rough road work in, maybe put in a pond, and then go with a loader/hoe combo and buy a tree spade for it. My neighbor has suggested to me numerous times how nice it would be to have a smaller sized dozer out there for us. I think if I got one he would be even more willing to help me out as I could help him w/ various tasks with the dozer.

once you get a nice dozer, you'll never want to get rid of it. :rolleyes:
just remember small in size doesn't mean it wont do the job, it's just going to take you longer to do it and not to abuse the machine

Dozerboy
12-06-2007, 07:30 PM
Not that I know anything about tree spades, but I don't see a Backhoe (loader/hoe combo) moving much of a tree. I think your going to need one mounted on a truck or large loader, and for such a specialized machine I would think you would be better renting or paying a Sub to do it.

nmmountainman
I asked about maintaining roads with a dozer in a earlier thread it make help you with the techniques in building a road. Here (http://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=4071&highlight=dozer+road)


td15c
If you haven't noticed yet some of these guys disagree with you on dozer sizes. ;)

Krackerjack9
12-06-2007, 10:22 PM
this is my friend who is working in Baghdad, he says this dozer is about the size of D-9 , its a Russain dozer but not sure of model. The company he works for they have 9 of these and only about 5 or 6 guys are pretty good the other 3 guys dont have a clue what he tells me.

nmmountainman
12-06-2007, 11:23 PM
SouthOnBeach-
Your probably right, if I found a great reliable dozer I probably wouldn't want to get rid of it.:D And depending on my finances I might hold on to it, but if I need another piece of equipment and don't have the extra cash I might have to sell it. When I am looking at dozers I am typically looking at smaller sizes than what most people are suggesting. For one, because they tend to be cheaper, and two because it might take longer but I don't mind as I love to be out in the woods on my land anyways. So I might end up with something smaller.

nmmountainman
12-06-2007, 11:38 PM
Dozerboy-
The tree spades I have looked at that are mounted on loaders look plenty big enough for my needs. I don't intend on transplanting giant trees, just smaller ones. The other thing is I will need something that can easily negotiate the terrain and the trailer mounted tree spades just wouldn't be able to get into some of the areas. Also, I am on a limited budget and the larger the spade, the more it will cost. I intend on doing all of the tree transplanting at my leisure, so I won't want to hire anyone, and I think hiring someone would be too costly.
Some of the trees I will be transplanting are ponderosa that have been growing in dense thickets of other trees, so they have grown straight up in search of light. They might be 30ft tall but only be a couple of inches in diameter. So I am guessing they will have small root balls. These trees will make great future timber trees as they are tall and straight. I just need to get them growing somewere with more light and water. I think once I free them from their compitition and allow them to grow w/ more access to light and water they will do great. Most of the trees on my property that I want to transplant are this exact scenario.
The trees I want to take from the national forest are of other species and already in good growing conditions. I want to increase the diversity of trees. So for example: my land mainly has ponderosa, juniper, pinion, and oak brush. I want to take douglas fir, white fir, aspen, spruce, etc. from the national forest and transplant them onto my land to increase my diversity.:)
Hopefully this made sense. :o

hvy 1ton
12-07-2007, 12:48 AM
i just remembered about these guys, rockland mfg (http://www.rocklandmfg.com/Dozers/equipment_index.htm) they don't make a tree spade, but they make tree saws, other attachments and quick couplers.

Deas Plant
12-07-2007, 01:59 AM
Hi, TD15C.
So now there are qualifications relating to various sizes of machine, are there? So a D4 might have a little difficulty with a 30" oak? So what size trees would you attack with a D4 if it was all you had?

Can you please explain why a bigger dozer is harder to trim down to say +/- 1" than a smaller one? Let's just say that I'm like Nmmountainman, just starting out on machines, and I can use all the help I can get.

Thanks in anticipation.

nmmountainman
12-07-2007, 01:37 PM
hvy 1ton-
great link! I love to bookmark sites like those.

johnj7l
12-08-2007, 11:57 AM
These have a option on them not seen very often, its to keep out your pesky IED shrapnel and the ocassional sniper shot.

Wow!:usa

Krackerjack9
12-08-2007, 10:49 PM
Here is a better photo of a different dozer with full battle armor. They do have AC in them its a must have. With out it you burn yourself in the summer on that steel. The radiant heat inside would be well over 160 or so degrees, these are used mainly outside the wire.

Construct'O
12-09-2007, 02:11 PM
Armor is great,but might want some more! Just takes one armor pirecing round through the side cover that is missing into the engine ,like on the above pictures and your dead in the water(sand).

Then your stranded where you don't want to be.Take care.:usa

Tn Bulldog
12-09-2007, 06:02 PM
Thats a bad looking Cat:drinkup bout a D7G Id say ? :drinkup


Put some sweeps on the hood & a Winch on the back & it would be ready for land clearing or logging ;) :D




later

Bulldog

Krackerjack9
12-09-2007, 10:53 PM
the one dozer next to this one had a winch on it, well that armor is going to stop any rifle type of round except for a 50 and I can say that there are not that many 50's in the insurgents hands. And there is plating in the fire wall area so no worry about one going thur the engine area. This type of set up wieghs in at about 4 tons or more.

sthilman
12-17-2007, 12:44 AM
well apparantly in order to ask a question, I have to first post in an existing thread. even though it has nothing to do with this original post. Anyway, I have been small dozer searching for two years now. I do small logging jobs on the side, and am tired of renting equipment to get the job done. I live in Northern Idaho and would like to now where the best place to search for equipment is. On line searches in the big equipment sites produce equipment which is almost always back east somewhere. I am thinking something like a JD450 or TD8, but besides the 1 or 2 in the local classifieds you can't find these things.

pwrstroke6john
12-17-2007, 12:49 AM
Have you tried looking for the 80s cat D3Bs there good dozers and and it will have a bit more power then the 450 deere

Hock D9G
12-17-2007, 01:26 AM
Hi im new to the forum. from looking at your photos of your land and the price range a Cat D size machine would best suit your needs good horsepower&weight.The links to used machinery sites mentioned previously im sure you will find a machine to suit your needs.

Deas Plant
12-17-2007, 07:14 AM
Hi, HockD9G.
Welcome to the forum. Now I have a query for you. A Cat D What machine? I suspect that you might have left out a vital piece of your post. Not so?

surfer-joe
12-17-2007, 10:15 AM
sthilman, try the sites I've listed here. The "My Little Salesman" is one of the best for the western US. The rental houses are always selling off equipment, usually in pretty good shape. Look at the Ritchie Bros auction site too, and their may be other equipment auctions in your area to check out. Check the dealer websites in your area and maybe contact their salesmen. They may not have what you want, but possibly they can direct you to someone that does. They can also help you define your search closer to what you actually want. Note that some of the auctions are in Canada. You might find what you want up there, but there is the hassle of bringing it back. Not insurmountable, but still a chore. Good Luck!


http://www.mlsinc.com/

http://www.machinerytrader.com/

http://www.hertzequip.com/

http://www.rockanddirt.com/

http://www.ur.com/

http://www.rbauction.com/index.jsp

Countryboy
12-17-2007, 09:13 PM
Welcome to Heavy Equipment Forums sthilman! :drinkup

Hock D9G
12-18-2007, 12:16 AM
Deas Plant sorry for leaving out vital information. A Cat D6 size machine as they are can do a descent days work & reliable.

sthilman
12-18-2007, 04:10 PM
thanks for the suggestions, on where to look for dozers. my new hobby seems to be looking at these things on-line for the last few years. I have looked at most of those sites and like I said most of the selection seems to be back East.
Also, Is there information out there on What a guy should look at when purchasing an 80's type dozer? D-3 size

Ray Welsh
12-18-2007, 06:10 PM
Hi Deas!
It does help. My neighbor is more than willing to help me without charging me for his time. Your correct, he has a backhoe and a grader, thats why I thought a dozer would be a good complementing peice of equipment. My girlfriend's father is just weiry about buying a dozer that then brakes down and feels a grader's overall condition is easier to identify. He also has a lot of time on a grader and thinks once your done w/ your dozer work its just going to sit, were a grader can be used to clear snow etc.
My feeling is a dozer would be the most appropriate piece of equipment but my girlfriends dad just got my rethinking.
I should also mention I have a lot of tree transplanting ideas. I can buy forest permits to take live trees and replant them on my land. If I had some sort of tractor w/ a tree spade I could "re-forest" some of my more arid looking areas. My girlfriends dad also mentioned he felt a backhoe would be a more usefull piece of equipment than a dozer and with ideas of tree transplanting a backhoe could be usefull. I think there are some backhoes that have detachable hoes were maybe i could attach a tree spade. Do you know anything about this?
My land is surrounded by thousands of acres of national forest with all different species of trees, and i would like to transplant some new species into my land. Also, some of my more dense areas of forest have hundreds of smaller trees that would love to be transplanted in an area were they will get more light, so I can do some tree transplanting on my own land even.
The dozer idea is to get a road in for better access on my land, brush clearing, errosion correcting and maybe pond building, but I also have dreams of tree transplanting.:D
Am I a dreamer? :o

I'm not sure why everyone seens to be fixed on the idea of transplanting trees. Why not buy or remove some seedlings, aprox one or two years old, then plant them with a mattock or spade. You can select the type of tree for each location and you will be surprised how fast they grow. I trained with New Zealand Forest service for over 5yrs starting 1963 and started on plant/equipment during that time.
This is an excellent site with positive advice on repairs and maintenance. I congratulate the organiser/moderators

nmmountainman
12-19-2007, 02:05 PM
surfer-joe
thanks for the links, they are helpfull

Ray Welsh-
I have looked into buying seedlings. The state has a great seedling program. I have purchased a few hundred in the past, and there not very expensive. Using seedlings was the way I was going to go. But out here trees don't grow very fast and seedlings require a lot of care, constant watering. I transplanted the seedlings into large pots so I could give them a head start before putting them out on my land. I had them at home and even being in my back yard I couldn't care for them well enough. Virtualy all are dead but around 50. I don't feel seedlings would take very well on my land. I would rather spend my time caring for fewer trees that I can transplant and that are larger in size and used to the soil mix.

Orchard Ex
12-19-2007, 02:56 PM
Aren't big transplanted trees going to take a lot more care than little transplanted trees?

Ray Welsh
12-19-2007, 04:20 PM
Aren't big transplanted trees going to take a lot more care than little transplanted trees?

That is correct. Larger transplants are more fragile with larger water requirements than seedlings. Seedlings from a proper nursery should be planted out in the final destination as soon as possible.
When properly prepared, the roots have already been trimmed underground and "root hairs" have started to form providing rapid search for nutrients and moisture.
I have seen small seedlings with minimal soil on the roots planted on rocky areas that wouldn't feed a goat, (sometimes by splitting a rock with a mattock then closing the gap). Those areas are now supporting large plantation timbers.

Ray Welsh
12-19-2007, 04:26 PM
surfer-joe
thanks for the links, they are helpfull

Ray Welsh-
I have looked into buying seedlings. The state has a great seedling program. I have purchased a few hundred in the past, and there not very expensive. Using seedlings was the way I was going to go. But out here trees don't grow very fast and seedlings require a lot of care, constant watering. I transplanted the seedlings into large pots so I could give them a head start before putting them out on my land. I had them at home and even being in my back yard I couldn't care for them well enough. Virtualy all are dead but around 50. I don't feel seedlings would take very well on my land. I would rather spend my time caring for fewer trees that I can transplant and that are larger in size and used to the soil mix.

See my comments to Orchard Ex below. Try smaller numbers at any particular time and give them more care if you wish. Your grandkids will thank you.

sthilman
12-19-2007, 09:46 PM
powerstroke, I have looked at those as well, but my trouble is finding them. I am not in the business everyday, so most of my search is via the internet and it seems as though most are located back east. What about Auctions? Is that a good route?, and how do you find out about them in your local area?
any suggestions from anyone out there is appreciated.

nmmountainman
12-20-2007, 12:14 AM
Ray Welsh-
Sounds like you have experience w/ seedlings. My feeling after having so many seedlings die in my back yard was that they would certainly die out on my land, but maybe they just need to go into the ground right away and not in a pot. The ground is so hard and dry on my land that the only time of year that I could plant seedlings without a backhoe would be during the spring snow melt. Everything is muddy and soft for a month or so. I think I will try planting my remaining seedlings this coming spring melt to see how they do. I am tired of them being in my backyard anyway. I have a couple of years before I would be in a financial situation to buy a tree spade anyways so maybe I will do some more experimenting with seedlings.
below is a link to the nm seedling program, check it out and tell me what you think.
http://www.emnrd.state.nm.us/FD/treepublic/
Thanks,
Fred

Ray Welsh
12-20-2007, 04:03 PM
Ray Welsh-
Sounds like you have experience w/ seedlings. My feeling after having so many seedlings die in my back yard was that they would certainly die out on my land, but maybe they just need to go into the ground right away and not in a pot. The ground is so hard and dry on my land that the only time of year that I could plant seedlings without a backhoe would be during the spring snow melt. Everything is muddy and soft for a month or so. I think I will try planting my remaining seedlings this coming spring melt to see how they do. I am tired of them being in my backyard anyway. I have a couple of years before I would be in a financial situation to buy a tree spade anyways so maybe I will do some more experimenting with seedlings.
below is a link to the nm seedling program, check it out and tell me what you think.
http://www.emnrd.state.nm.us/FD/treepublic/
Thanks,
Fred

Hello Fred,
Your treepublic website has plenty of good hints and an extensive variety of species. As I used to say to camp cooks, "Just read and follow the recipie".

Don't overwork yourself. 100 surviving trees is better than 500 dead ones. Good luck..........Ray

nmmountainman
12-21-2007, 12:25 AM
Ray-
I ordered 3 species of trees last night
white fir
douglas fir
blue spruce
I thought I would give seedlings another try. This time I will just plant directly into the ground instead of pots. Its worth a try. I havn't givin up on the tree transplanting idea, but thought I might as well try seedlings to see if they will work at all on my land.
Thanks
Fred

golddigger
01-05-2008, 09:33 PM
What you guys summed up for someone on dozers was better than a chiltons manual on how to fix something...thank you...All I thought was very good info...though I think JD dozers run a little slower than cat which makes grading a little easy for the beginner.

Deas Plant
01-05-2008, 10:47 PM
Hi, Golddigger.
Welcome to the forum.

You can find some more good information in this thread:

http://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=4915

Hope this helps.

TriHonu
01-06-2008, 08:37 PM
I don't know a lot about road building so I'll just post a link SD LTAP Gravel Road Maintenance Manual (http://www.epa.gov/owow/nps/gravelroads/intro.pdf).

I found it an interesting read and may help you with your project.

golddigger
01-13-2008, 09:05 PM
Is a 450 case the match for a 450 JD, and I heard of a statement made in an earlier quote that the case engines had problems in earlier years; is that corrected w/ an over haul or rebuild? Thanks......:beatsme Sorry if I'm jumping in asking this question

pwrstroke6john
01-13-2008, 10:02 PM
Im almost positive that the the 450 case is alot smaller then the 450 deere.

cgfreeland
01-15-2008, 05:33 PM
You guys would have the same recommendations for digging say a one acre tank as you are giving to this guy here? I was thinking a cat d6 but would love to get by with something smaller/cheaper like john deere 450 or the like.

Countryboy
01-15-2008, 07:40 PM
Welcome to Heavy Equipment Forums cgfreeland! :drinkup

Deas Plant
01-16-2008, 06:00 AM
Hi, Cgfreeland.
Firstly, welkum to ther for-ummm.

Yes, I would give pretty much the same advice on digging a 500 cu yd pond and a 10 acre if you are h**l-bent on doing a 10 acre pond with a dozer of ANY size. Just add LOTSA time and patience for the bigger jobs. You can find more information here:

http://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=4340&highlight=method+sinking

Hope this helps.

Willis Bushogin
01-26-2008, 04:32 PM
I would strongly suggest staying away from JD with hyrostatic transmission. I didnt take this advise and I bought a JD750, after working it hard for a few hours, it would lose its power. It was a great dozer,except for that and I traded it in on a Cat D5, great older dozer. Most important, make sure you know how to check the machine out, or have someone with you. I I needed another dozer, I would buy a Komatsu, they are cheaper than Cat and there is alot of them around. This wasnt part of the question, but STAY away from the Case 1088 excavator, there isnt many of them around, because most of them are in the salvage yard, including the one I got rid of a few years ago. Before you buy anything, check around your area and see who you will be getting to work on it. You will be getting someone to work on it, at some point. Some mechanic are more knowledgeable on certain machines and if you buy this kind of machine, it maybe cheaper to have the problem fixed, because he probrably has preformed this repair in the past.
Just my 2 cents worth

nmmountainman
01-31-2008, 01:41 AM
Thanks for the advise Willis. I do know of the person that would be servicing whatever dozer I get. I will ask what he has the most experience with. I gotta tell you though, I mainly have been looking at jd350's and cat d3's. I have seen that Kamatsu's are cheaper, but hadn't even considered them. I guess maybe I should see if the mechanic is familiar with the Kamatsu's.

NWH
01-31-2008, 10:34 PM
I have a deere 450H hydrostat since new in 99 and it has been a super
good & dependable machine. The 450-650 size machines are a completely
different kettle of fish from the 750-850 series. You will find that the 450 will work circles around a cat d3 and be comparable to a d4. I have owned several
dozers through the years and know this to be true.

nmmountainman
02-01-2008, 11:06 PM
seems like the 450s are in a little higher cost bracket than most 350s
I would like to find something below 15k

hardtail
02-02-2008, 07:05 AM
NMM I'll jump in the mix and offer some advice, sounds like this clean air regs thing in CA is starting to kick in, the boys from there will confirm, as well as Texas on ag tractors, anyway a guy from up here just transported up 2 D8K's from CA, said the price has seriously dropped from a year ago, they will have to repower or move out of state, anyway for your own farm/tree operation it is likely you won't have to abide by these future laws for your state if you operate 100 hrs or less a year.

Beautiful country:)are those trees all full grown? Ag tractors that qualify for a Fed replacement program must have a hole drilled in the block and frame cut in two.

http://cgi.ebay.com/international-caterpillar-dozer-ex-fire-dept-%20county_W0QQitemZ250211430270QQihZ015QQcategoryZ 97121QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Note the ad you will need to modify the engine or operate it outside of CA, for the record for the type of work you'll be doing I'd go with a dozer and winch. I think in the near future these older machines will go for little more than scrap prices and a whole lot newer machine than this.

Cat-Peter
02-02-2008, 12:26 PM
nmmoutainman,
You sure have an really nice bit of land there!!

nmmountainman
02-03-2008, 04:25 PM
hardtail-
thanks for the heads up on the new regulations going into effect. These are for tx and ca? this may really cause the market price to fall. I'll have to keep my eyes open. especailly b/c texas is so close
Most of my trees are Ponderosa, there probably 30yrs old, Ponderosa get MUCH bigger, they can live will over 100 yrs and will keep growing in size.
thanks again,

cat-peter-
thanks for the complement. it took me a long time to find my land, but in the end I was searching another piece and found the land I bought by mistake. I am super happy w/ my land and bought 2 of the 3 surrounding pieces next to my original property. Now I have one neighbor and all of the other property around my land is national forest.

hardtail
02-03-2008, 04:48 PM
I believe the regs that will affect the heavy equipment is for CA only, the ag tractor trade it seems is a fed program. But if guys are going from Alberta and trucking back Cats there must be money to be saved given fuel prices these days.

The IH TD14 wasn't a teaser? :D

nmmountainman
02-04-2008, 11:09 AM
the international was definately a teaser! especially given the price it was going for. but its the cats, jd and case that I've been watching more. I don't know much about the internationals. When does this new regulation go into effect? does it just effect the older equipment?

hardtail
02-04-2008, 11:12 PM
Well I thought the regs would still be a couple years away yet, but given the wording unless because it was a civic unit it maybe starting now.

I would think this could effect units right up to the 80's likely, after that a modify/repower might look better. From my understanding some of the future regs detail engines that haven't even been developed yet?

I'm not in the US but I know enough that CA may well get the ball rolling for this to be shoved down all our throats one day:Banghead

JEFF PRYCL
03-19-2008, 06:42 PM
That Old 2u D-8 Cat With Cable Ripper Sure Looks Like The One I Had And Used. Had 1h's, 2u's And 13'a All Cable. Hard On The Right Arm. Jeff

Countryboy
03-19-2008, 09:31 PM
Welcome to Heavy Equipment Forums JEFF PRYCL! :drinkup

petersfamilytru
03-19-2008, 10:08 PM
If I were you, I would look for a D6C (10K serial number). I have a D6D that is a great dozer, but you aren't going to find one worth having with your budger restrictions. However, the above vintage D6C has the same engine as the D model and is a great older Cat.

It may take some searching, but with a little luck, you may just find a nice D6C in your price range.

Happy Hunting!

www.petersfamilytrucking.com

JEFF PRYCL
03-21-2008, 08:52 AM
countryboy, thanks for the welcome. have been playing with questionable old equipment for a long time. oh the joy to be old. have bought a TD25 E with international 817c with crank problems. would like to switch to an N14 cummins. can anyone help. thanks again, jeff

RonG
03-21-2008, 04:08 PM
Go here Jeff.You will have to join but they bleed red over there.It is free but every question that you will have has already been answered several times over.Ron G
http://www.redpowermagazine.com/

lew
04-18-2008, 05:38 PM
I prefer john deere myself. You tend to get the most for your dollar in my opinion. But if you are working with a budget of 15k then I would look for an older case dozer. The resale doesnt seem to be quite as good so you should be able to pick one up resonable and still have a decent machine to boot.

td8
04-18-2008, 06:04 PM
I would get a international or dresser TD15 if u want a good mid size dozer or a TD8e if u want a smaller 6-way blade dozer. I've owned and operated a TD8e for about 10 years i've built ponds,roads, dug basements,and a lot of clearing with it.I,ve had good luck with it and i,ve ran cat,deere and it will hold its own with any of them.

bear
04-19-2008, 12:26 AM
I'd get a used D6 or so they are about bullet proof. More later the missus wants the computer.