Bobcat controls

[xrlentau6]

Hi all, just after some words of wisdom.

I am just starting out and have got a Bobcat 753, its a soild unit in good condition which I will use to start with.

The question I have is about the Bobcat joystick controls as I have heard that they have some problems. If anyone has a Bobcat with Joystick controls how have you found them and have you had any problems?
Cheers

[OSCLandscaping]

I have a 2003 753, 1000 hrs on it and have not had a single problem with the hand controls.

[bill5362]

I have had 3 bobcats from 863, S300, T300 all with AHC advanced hand controls and wouldn't have anything else. I have tried joystick and don't like the lack on percise control that I get with the hand controls

[SiteSolutions]

2007 T-190 Gold Package, with SJC - Selectable Joystick Controls

The controls started acting nuts around 250 hours. Turns out there are little speed sensors in the drive motors. These have little wires running back into the machine so the SJC computer can figure out what the drive motors are doing. They are tucked in under the big metal guard that protects the drive motors and the hoses going to them. In my case, the guards were pinching the wires going to the little sensors. Fixed under warranty but it took them a couple tries to figure out wtf was going on. They modified the guards and put a rubber hose around the new wires for the new sensors.

100 hours later, no problems and still enjoy the low effort. They do take a day or two to get used to how they respond but it is so nice to be able to drive the machine a long distance and scratch my nose at the same time, or adjust the throttle, or answer the phone, etc...

Note that this happened to my track machine, where the drives and sensors are outside the frame. It's probably not a problem on a rubber tire machine with the motors etc tucked inside where it's safe.

[bobcat ron]

This type of joystick question is why I'm glad I moved over to the "Yellow side"...........CAT.

[dirthog28]

I agree with Bill on the lack of precision control from Joystick control. I have a Bobcat 773 with hand/foot controls and when fine grading along a house foundation, driveway, patio will be within inches or alot of times lightly rubbing against with the bucket. I've ran Takeuchi, Cat and Komatsu joystick controls with several hours experience and would not attempt to grade the way I do with hand/foot controls at fast speeds. I personally think Takeuchi has the wildest controls, never ran Bobcat joystick controls. I like hand/foot also because you can control power to the wheels/track when turning. Some people won't like this comment but, joystick controls alot of times are for cowboy operators, just bucketing material and not doing precision work

[Countryboy]

Welcome to Heavy Equipment Forums SiteSolutions! :drinkup

[Squizzy246B]

One of my best clients has a S185 with AHC and its gone berserk twice. Both times were found to be a result of dust but I don't know where in the system it would get in. The solution has been to keep the windows shut and the AC on...no more problems.

On the subject of pilot controls and precision...you only have to think about excavator operators, they do it all day everyday. However, I must admit to having problems coming from Case and Mustang to Cat....it took awhile to relax and rest my forearms......and stop trying to push my feet through the floor. Once mastered its not something you want to leave. I don't think it will be too long before almost every skid steer will have pilots/joysticks of some form....most every other type of machine has gone that way.

[SiteSolutions]

The Takeuchi controls do take some getting used to. Bobcat's SJC are similar.

Bucket control I have found to be as good or better than pedals, and a LOT easier on my knees. Maybe new pedal machines are easier but they tend to stiffen up over time. Anyway, the bucket / loader arm control is great.

Machine travel control is not so great for precision work. There's no feedback so instead of gliding the edge right up against a house or sidewalk, it's too easy to take a chunk out of whatever you are trying to work next to. Also because there is zero feedback, if you are tearing up your tracks, you won't find out until you get out of the machine and see the damage done. That said, for an owner operator, it's just a learning curve. I've gotten better at it over the last 300+ hours and once you get a feel for it, it's easier to stay consistent because you don't get fatigued. The controls are really low effort and they don't jerk you around as much.

[Squizzy246B]

The feedback thing has been discussed a number of times on this board. I hear what people are saying its just that I spend more time on loaders and excavators where the "feedback" comes through the thing you are sitting on. I have over 4000 hours on Cat skids but I still look at it as just another loader....and apply the same principles, it seems to work for me, perhaps thats because I was on wheel loaders first and never missed the "feedback" thing.

[bobcat ron]

When you are working along side of a wall and you know you're not allowed to hit it, why would you want feed back in the controls?!?!?
Just stay the hell away from it with the bucket by a few inches, all the years of running dozers and pushing sand/gravel along new walls, we can't even see the blade edges, and we certainly don't need any feed back to know when it's being rubbed, it's just common sense, good eye hand coordination pays off.
When I demo'ed the 247 MTL I bought, I used it for fine grading along a concrete slab, I never once hit it because I used common sense.
I thought that would be an issue coming from Hand/Foot controls on my Bobcat and going full pilots on the CAT, but it wasn't.
If you spend the amount of time working with medium to large excavators and other heavier equipment, feed back is something of the past best left to the older machines, it's all in the operators expertise and eye to hand coordination.

[SiteSolutions]

When you are working along side of a wall and you know you're not allowed to hit it, why would you want feed back in the controls?!?!?
Just stay the hell away from it with the bucket by a few inches, all the years of running dozers and pushing sand/gravel along new walls, we can't even see the blade edges, and we certainly don't need any feed back to know when it's being rubbed, it's just common sense, good eye hand coordination pays off.


I can see the bucket edge. A CTL is not a dozer.

But thanks for calling me out as not having sense or hand-eye coordination.

Truthfully, I like it inside my loader better than outside, and I would rather work the edges with a machine than a landscape rake whenever possible. There might be other people who buy these machines for their ability to do fine / finish work. And this is my observation of what to expect from Bobcat SJC:
>Ease of use / reduced fatigue
>A little slop in the drive control; takes getting used to when working an edge
>If it's a track machine, you might get to use that warranty you got when you bought it.

[dirthog28]

Joystick controls on a skidsteer remind me of the old D3,4,5C with hystatic their squirrelly in the travel. I have no problem with the bucket movement it's the travel, your arm is sitting there bouncing around in the machine picking up everymovent sending it into the travel joystick causing it to get squirrelly. I do agree it is nice and relaxing and operator friendly to someone with no experience. I still say you lose power to the tires/tracks when turning with joystick controls.

I agree SiteSolutions, I take pride in my work, and don't like to have a labor or myself have to hand rake a windrow away from a wall or foundation. But like somebody said I don't have any sense, experience or hand/eye coordination

P.S. When I'm on a dozer I will rub against the wall or object if permittable, not just skidsteer, but I have no SENSE or SKILL!!

[bobcat ron]

Those first generation Hystats were just awful, thank God they lave that lock system now.

[SiteSolutions]

I guess the thing is the delay or lag in the Bobcat SJC, it keeps bouncing arm movements from jerking the machine around, but you can't just bump the machine forward. You push on the stick, wait one whole second it seems, and then the machine reacts. No problem in an open field but up next to a wall it can take off and hit the wall and of course when you let go it takes another half second or however long to actually react and stop. It reacts to turns more quickly than this but from zero or going to zero it seems like they intentionally put lag in the response to protect the machine from over agressive use or make it more user-friendly.

[bobcat ron]

That delay time you mentioned is the same on my Cat as well, it's for the drive line protection, makes sure that all moving parts have stopped before changing direction. You get used to it, knowing exactly when to pull back.

[digger242j]

Also because there is zero feedback, if you are tearing up your tracks, you won't find out until you get out of the machine and see the damage done.

Reference this particular point...

I'm not sure that 'feedback" is the best term, but I did notice that when I frist got on a CAT with the pilot controls, I missed the feeling of knowing how much effort was being exterted by which track (or set of tires, as the case may be), becasue it wasn't really up to me. On the conventional control Case, or New Holland skidders I was accustomed to running, I knew, because I was the one commanding both sides of the drive system--if I wanted full forward power to the right, and full reverse to the left, that's what I told the machine to do. With the pilot controls, you don't have that.

I honestly can't tell you whether the tracks can be made to counter-rotate, because I've never been able to watch both sides moving at the same time. I know that with conventional skid steer controls, I can make them do that.

I have to say though, that having got past that, I like the pilot controls better...

[bobcatuser]

I’ve only run joystick controls a few times on a cat skid steer. I found it smooth for grading but I wasn’t able to shake the dirt from the bucket when loading trucks with high sides.

Bobcat ron,
What part of BC are you from, I’m from Richmond.

[Steve Frazier]

The Cat skid pilot controls will make the wheels/tracks counter rotate so you can turn the machine on itself.

I tried a Bobcat with their first offering of pilot controls and they weren't as smooth or responsive as my Cat's. This was in 2001, they may have improved them since then. After you've run the pilot controls for a while and adjusted to them, you'll never want to go back to the conventional style. They are so much more responsive and less fatiguing than the long throw levers.

[SiteSolutions]

The Cat skid pilot controls will make the wheels/tracks counter rotate so you can turn the machine on itself.

I tried a Bobcat with their first offering of pilot controls and they weren't as smooth or responsive as my Cat's. This was in 2001, they may have improved them since then. After you've run the pilot controls for a while and adjusted to them, you'll never want to go back to the conventional style. They are so much more responsive and less fatiguing than the long throw levers.

Yeah, when my machine was down getting the SJC repaired, I got a ragged out S-250 loaner with open cab and rowing sticks. I didn't miss it when I got my machine back.

The SJC can counter rotate, or just run one track forward, or just one track back.

I think the 2001 Cat controls were actually pilots, not E/H like the Bobcat SJC, so I bet they had better feeling.

[dirthog28]

That's what I've been trying to say DIGGER242 when loading from one side of the bucket or pushing a load while turning you can control the power to the tires/tracks with hand/foot controls alot more than joystick. Plus joystick controls are more electronic stuff to go wrong just like you guys have mentioned. I'm sure this will be a long time arguement among operators just like JD VS Cat controls.

[bobcat ron]

Bobcat ron,
What part of BC are you from, I’m from Richmond.


Abbotsford.

[bobcat ron]

Yeah, when my machine was down getting the SJC repaired, I got a ragged out S-250 loaner with open cab and rowing sticks. I didn't miss it when I got my machine back.

The SJC can counter rotate, or just run one track forward, or just one track back.

I think the 2001 Cat controls were actually pilots, not E/H like the Bobcat SJC, so I bet they had better feeling.

The early Cat pilots had problems with the counter rotation, you had to move the joystick first forward or backwards and then full left or right, depending on the direction you want to CR, since then it's been fixed, keep the joystick in neutral and just move it left or right slightly and you rotate as fast as you are moving the joystick.

[dirthog28]

On a Cat I don't know if it's the joystick controls or the lack of power to the tracks but the 247B, 257B and 277B's that I've ran all of them you had to walk it forwards and backwards while turning (like a dozer) it wouldn't spin on a dime, which is why I've never been a big Cat skidsteer fan, plus their undercarriage has a lot of moving parts and rocks would get up in their and start burnin the rubber tracks given you a headache all day. Small cab on the Cats also.

[Dirtman2007]

That's why I like our takeuchi TL150, plent of power, turns on a dime, very sensitive hand controls. Some very nice finish grading can be done with this machine.

[dirthog28]

I agree dirtman the Takeuchi will turn on a dime and has plenty of power, but the 130 and 150 that I've ran had the squirrellys controls ever, the main reason why at work we went the Komatsu CK35.

[Dirtman2007]

I agree dirtman the Takeuchi will turn on a dime and has plenty of power, but the 130 and 150 that I've ran had the squirrellys controls ever, the main reason why at work we went the Komatsu CK35.

Those were the machines that I learned on. I never really noticed the controls being squirrelly, I guess I'm just ust to the way it operates.

It's a 2006 model, so that problem may have been fixed :beatsme

[bobcat ron]

On a Cat I don't know if it's the joystick controls or the lack of power to the tracks but the 247B, 257B and 277B's that I've ran all of them you had to walk it forwards and backwards while turning (like a dozer) it wouldn't spin on a dime, which is why I've never been a big Cat skidsteer fan, plus their undercarriage has a lot of moving parts and rocks would get up in their and start burnin the rubber tracks given you a headache all day. Small cab on the Cats also.

See Ron's post below. I don't know why the links didn't work when I edited that into this post, but apparently, he's fixed the problem. :confused:

Thank you, Ron.

[bobcat ron]

Trust me, they fixed the problem on the B2's.

Here's an un-official "review" I did, on the machine I just bought:

So here are the comparison pics between my T190 and the 247B2 I got on demo from Finning.

**This is not a direct comparison between the 2 machines, the CAT has 1400 lbs ROC and the 190 has 1900 lbs ROC, I am aware of that, this is mainly to compare the physical difference between the 2 rivals**
Side by side shots, both are the same length and the CAT is 2" taller and 2" less ground clearance:
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t178/rdj07/Pictures129.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t178/rdj07/Pictures130.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t178/rdj07/Pictures131.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t178/rdj07/Pictures132.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t178/rdj07/Pictures133.jpg


Doors open at the same angle, CAT is alot heavier and taller, but narrower and the CAT has the advantage with visibility, no wiper motor that you have to look around to see the cutting edge.
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t178/rdj07/Pictures135.jpg

Quick attach, CAT is better protected, my cylinder was repaired due to rocks scratching the piston shaft, but I noticed how badly the mud got packed under the dual cylinders of the CAT Q/A.
Bobcat:
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t178/rdj07/Pictures137.jpg
CAT:
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t178/rdj07/Pictures136.jpg

Visibility to the Cutting Edge, same on both models, but hooking up to attachments on the CAT was more difficult:
Bobcat:
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t178/rdj07/Pictures134.jpg
CAT:
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t178/rdj07/Pictures125.jpg

Excellent visibility to the top of the rear of the tracks, same as the Bobcat, you just need to lift the loader up higher, mainly due to the Radius path loader, but it was just as good as Bobcat RPL's.:
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t178/rdj07/Pictures143.jpg

One of the many things I like about the CAt was here in the pic, the bucket tilt pins are in front of the loader, not inside like Bobcat's, much stronger and no Q/A flexing causing cracks, also there is a solid chunk of steel that the Q/A dead ends on to giving the bucket excellent cleanout in sticky stuff, you can really "bang" or "slam" out the muck:
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t178/rdj07/Pictures138.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t178/rdj07/Pictures147.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t178/rdj07/Pictures146.jpg

Got it loaded onto the trailer for the day's work:
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t178/rdj07/Pictures150.jpg



The undercarriage is not as weak, only if there is a real nutt behind the butt.


I edited this due to the links not working.

[CascadeScaper]

You guys are running junk Cat's if they don't counter-rotate without throwing the machine forward or reverse. I've been in 6 or 7 different Cat skids and MTL's over the years and they all worked fine. Throw the stick straight left, left tires would spin backwards, front tires would go forward and vice versa.

[Squizzy246B]

You guys are running junk Cat's if they don't counter-rotate without throwing the machine forward or reverse. I've been in 6 or 7 different Cat skids and MTL's over the years and they all worked fine. Throw the stick straight left, left tires would spin backwards, front tires would go forward and vice versa.

I agree but I think Dirthog is referring to the load sensor valve problems that plagued some (maybe a batch) machines...it would just sit there and groan like a relief valve was lifting. Just ask Tim with his new 257B. We were testing two new 247B's side by side, both with less than 100 hours...one would turn on a dime now worries but the other had to be coaxed around.

I think this comes to a quality control issue somewhere in the process. I have noticed subtle differences in the pilots on B series....they all seem to have their own peculiarities...but nothing you don't quickly adapt to.....and there is no way on this earth I'd go back to bloody yankem sticks and foot pedals.

On the 246B it developed a hesitation to go to the left so I put a 0.002" shim under the pilot body seat...fixed. I know a couple of ASV guys who did this as well....noting they both have the same Rexroth pilot valve.

[CascadeScaper]

That's strange, I've been in quite a few different units and none of them gave any issues. A bit strange, I've never heard of the valving issue. I do understand that they will struggle to counter-rotate without enough throttle, but what can you expect.

[SiteSolutions]

Throw the stick straight left, left tires would spin backwards, front tires would go forward and vice versa.

Sounds like a Cat! :D

[bonanno23]

hello im new here, i started out with the hand/foot controls and wouldn't go back for anything. i own 3 cat 287B's, Cat 268 Takeuchi TL150, and a Gehl ctl60 (takeuchi painted yellow) i can't see how someone could say that the hand/foot controls allow more finess around tight areas. i can grade with confidence next to anything with my pilot controls. im sure its just personal preference but i cant see it. my ctl60 is a little more jumpy, but i feel its because the tracts are a lot skinnier than the others. i would have considered buying a deere but the hand/foot controls killed that idea


just to add a little note, great site. happened to find it on a diesel site. look forward to reading on.

[Tigerotor77W]

Welcome to the forum, bonanno23!


=Takeuchi TL150, and a Gehl ctl60

Why a Gehl and a Takeuchi, out of curiosity? And how do you like the Cats compared to the Takeuchi/Gehl?

[bonanno23]

thank you, i went towards the takeuchi/gehl (same machine) for a few reasons. first the cats undercarrage is garbage. to do a complete UC on the cat its a little under $20,000 at the dealer. the takeuchi is barely $10,000. second the cat door doesn't allow you to get out unless the boom is all the way down or up. the takeuchi has a sliding door/window which gives you the option to get out at any boom location and more importantly you can run with the door open if its not dusty or if you need to talk to the laborer(s) i will be going with all takeuchis and one gehl track loader as well as a gehl 7810 tire machine for my raod work. im a cat lover but they don't compare to the takeuchi. of course this is all my opinion, but as you can see i have both and can make an honest judgement.

[unimog]

thank you, i went towards the takeuchi/gehl (same machine) for a few reasons. first the cats undercarrage is garbage. to do a complete UC on the cat its a little under $20,000 at the dealer. the takeuchi is barely $10,000. second the cat door doesn't allow you to get out unless the boom is all the way down or up. the takeuchi has a sliding door/window which gives you the option to get out at any boom location and more importantly you can run with the door open if its not dusty or if you need to talk to the laborer(s) i will be going with all takeuchis and one gehl track loader as well as a gehl 7810 tire machine for my raod work. im a cat lover but they don't compare to the takeuchi. of course this is all my opinion, but as you can see i have both and can make an honest judgement.


That sums up my sentiments on CTLs as well. TL150 all the way. Doesn't the 7810 have the 3.9 Cummins? Can't go wrong there.

[bonanno23]

yeah the 7810 is a monster. i do a lot of drainage work and currently use a cat 268. the gehl has a longer wheelbase which will have less bounce while turning not to mention the power difference and i believe the reach of the gehl is much higher. the 268 makes it over my ten wheelers but barely makes my trailers. cats are way too small in the cab as well. all our other machines are cats except the takeuchi, gehl, and a pc300 but as far as skid steers, getting away from cat.

im actually looking into getting a little excavator for my landscaping business. any one have any brands models they like for landscaping. if i were to get another cat it would be between a 304 to a 308. we already have large ones, just need a nice small one that a 6 wheeler can handle

[Countryboy]

Welcome to Heavy Equipment Forums bonanno23! :drinkup

[bobcatmechanic]

bobcat has had joystick problems you could only get them from about 3 years ago and they were not that popunlar back then so they are hard to find an older machine with them also the older machiine they had alot of pump controller problems witch the controllers are about 2500 dollars so it is best to go with the new k series joystick machine witch they have worked alot of the problems out and changed to a coil set up instead of a soilid controller so to repair them are alot cheaper best advice if you are going to get a joystick machine id get the 3 year warranty because just because its new doesn't mean its not going to break down in the first few years i've seen very expensive bills that will more than pay for the warranty cost in the first few repairs plus it covers quite a bit of stuff the joystick machines do take a little bit to get used to but they are nice to run after that also the t140 t180 t190 have speed sensor isues on the track machines and its usually a speed sensor on the track motor leaking or bad the 250 300's have drive motor problems also so be leary they usually dont show them selves until 1500 2000 hrs so just be aware if that when getting one the wheel machines i have not seen any real problems out of them so your good there its some thing about the track machines that bobcat just cant get right but htey are working on it how hard i dont know. i know all of this because i work for a bobcat dealership and i have alot of info that is very usefull when working or going to buy a bobcat brand machine not to familiar with cat case or johndeere but i will try to help as much as possible

[bobcatmechanic]

bobcats controls are electric over hydralic so there control issues are usually a soft ware issue and not a hyd issue depending on the model and year of corse but bobcat has always been electric over hyd