"Feeling" lines with the backhoe

[digger242j]

In another thread recently, the subject came up of "feeling" something with the backhoe, and not breaking it. The particular comment had to do with an electric line, and the results were apparently not good.

I have some opinions, and a few war stories.

Anybody care to share their thoughts on whether or not this is an operationally practical approach to locating buried obstacles?

[RonG]

I have had a fair amount of success with ductile iron if it is big enough!! LOLOLOL Ron

[Bob Horrell]

I think it depends a lot on the dirt you are digging. If the dirt is fairly soft and rock free then you can feel iron pretty easy. If the soil is rocky, you can't feel squat. I recently did a job for a school were I had to dig about a mile of trench connecting all of the buildings. There were a lot of water lines that weren't marked and I felt every one of them (13 altogether) and broke none. I knew there were some unmarked water lines and was trying to feel for them and not digging as fast as I might if I wasn't expecting something. The soil was rock free and under sod so it was wet and easy digging. I did punch my teeth through a plastic drain pipe before I felt it. It was softer than the surrounding dirt so I couldn't feel it until the teeth were through it and the bucket contacted it. I ran into a little sand at one point and stopped and probed and one half inch lower was a newer plastic gas line with a tracer wire that was missed when they marked the underground utilities. You can never count 100% on the guys doing the marking.

[ForsytheBros.]

Digger-

I responded to another thread of yours on another situation but figured i'd follow on this as well.

I"m not embarrassed to admit that we are NOT good at feeling utilities on jobs. We'll typically pothole by hand to find marked lines (sometimes scratching with a machine for the first portion to start) and then continue trenching under the utility via backhoe and shovels combined. That said, we are pretty careful excavators in my opinion regarding honoring existing utilities.
We have found in trenching operations with backhoes (utilities are mostly what we're doing now) that if we take long, shallow passes with the machine that fill the bucket with crumbs as opposed to a big , massive , hog-out, that helps us to be a little luckier in finding pipes/cables that are unmarked without damaging them. I'm still fighting this battle in my mind, cause digging around such obstacles has been a major production dropper for us, and most of this stuff is not usually on the plans.

[tylermckee]

Digger-

I responded to another thread of yours on another situation but figured i'd follow on this as well.

I"m not embarrassed to admit that we are NOT good at feeling utilities on jobs. We'll typically pothole by hand to find marked lines (sometimes scratching with a machine for the first portion to start) and then continue trenching under the utility via backhoe and shovels combined. That said, we are pretty careful excavators in my opinion regarding honoring existing utilities.
We have found in trenching operations with backhoes (utilities are mostly what we're doing now) that if we take long, shallow passes with the machine that fill the bucket with crumbs as opposed to a big , massive , hog-out, that helps us to be a little luckier in finding pipes/cables that are unmarked without damaging them. I'm still fighting this battle in my mind, cause digging around such obstacles has been a major production dropper for us, and most of this stuff is not usually on the plans.

Thats pretty much how we operate as well. we pothole any utilities we will be crossing, using the machine and hand digging. And if we are digging around any existing utilites its shallow long passes. You can feel old steel gas lines pretty easy, same for ductile water lines, anything else is pretty tough. Usually find the old trench line, or the if the material you are digging gets soft or you find some sand, that gives it away. That being said it doesnt alway work out. I caught a power line a few months ago, it was in conduit to cross the street, and i hit it right where the conduit ended and it went direct bury. Ended up ripping it out of the transformer on the other side of the street. It wasnt a cheap repair they had to replace the transformer, send in a vac truck, had two power crews, flaggers, some environmental agency was out, they made a huge deal out of not much. All ive hit though, well besides a few unmarked sewer or storm services that we had no idea were there, those are a just a 5 minute fix though.

edit i forgot i also snagged a 50 pair phone cable a month ago. It was dead and wasnt located though, and i sure as hell didnt 'feel' i.

[mflah87]

One of my guys wackd a high voltage electrical line with the backhoe and melted part of the bucket. It was a real rocky type of soil so I can blame him, and o yea digsafe was off by 10 ft;.

[DigDug]

I have had a fair amount of success with ductile iron if it is big enough!! LOLOLOL Ron

HAHAHAHA!

[tuney443]

Thank God when I found that skull to the mastodon I had my old machine because I would have never felt it with the new one with pilot controls.How do you tell 20 scientists ''Oops,sorry'' after you smash a 12,000 yr. old skull?----------You don't.

[dayexco]

when it comes to the loss of life, serious injury, or damage to property......man, i'm reluctant to trust my "feel" on the sticks, and it's not like i'm a newbie here, i've been running hoes now for over 30 yrs.

all pilot controls do is remotely actuate the valve body and remove the mechanical linkage. in theory, you should get the same "feel" from the machine whether you're direct linked to it or through pilot controls. i doubt there are many "if any" here that can feel the difference between a 1" poly water line, and the virgin surrounding soil. you see a discoloration in the soil from the excavation, or what you're feeling is a difference in the soil that has already been excavated at one time or another. i'll buy into the idea that you can feel a larger phone/power cable, a larger diameter steel, pvc water/sewer line. but in my opinion, what you're sensing is your machine working a little harder.

[Bob Horrell]

Sometimes you can see the ground move on each side of the trench before you break a line. This is especially true if you expect something might be there. This has saved me a number of times. The deeper the trench the less likely this will work for you as the force required to move the dirt in a deep trench is more than the force to break a pipe (the pipe is help firm by all the surrounding dirt).

[Dozerboy]

I can feel a 3/4 conduit if I have a good idea where it is but normally I feel them right by a fitting and brake it. Out here there is so much rock most of the time you never know. Now with my dozer anything is fair game even the 12" water line that didn't exist per the "as builds" I hit a few weeks ago.

[jmac]

In just a few short years I have hit my share of stuff. On one job two summers ago the water line to the house was never marked by the water board and was very old. The home I was working was 100 years old. Hit the water line twice on the same job and city could not find curb box to shut off water. We had to repair it under pressure twice. Good thing it was 90 out both days because every one got wet.

On a job this summer had a 4" sewer line to put in and connect to main. It was about 300’ of trench to dig. Running the whole length of the trench was a direct burry phone line that ran the fire alarm to the building. I told the plant manager that chances of me not hitting the phone line was not very good. He said to me "if you hit the phone line the plant will pay to have it fixed because he wanted the sewer line to run at the location he specified and not move it over a few feet. After digging the whole trench but about 10' left the line was so old that it was broken by the shovel my guy was using when he was digging it up. The repair cost $1100 and the plant billed back the GC the whole bill and the GC deducted the bill from my check. I tried to argue the point, even called the plant manager and he remembered our conversation but he said "I didn't realize it would cost that much to fix so I have no choice but to charge the cost to the GC" Basically I got screwed. :Banghead Worked for free that day. I don’t know if I am making any point here but just to say that if you hit you will pay to fix it. It has been that way in my past experience. Next time I will get it in writing or put my machine back on the trailer.

[tuney443]

when it comes to the loss of life, serious injury, or damage to property......man, i'm reluctant to trust my "feel" on the sticks, and it's not like i'm a newbie here, i've been running hoes now for over 30 yrs.

all pilot controls do is remotely actuate the valve body and remove the mechanical linkage. in theory, you should get the same "feel" from the machine whether you're direct linked to it or through pilot controls. i doubt there are many "if any" here that can feel the difference between a 1" poly water line, and the virgin surrounding soil. you see a discoloration in the soil from the excavation, or what you're feeling is a difference in the soil that has already been excavated at one time or another. i'll buy into the idea that you can feel a larger phone/power cable, a larger diameter steel, pvc water/sewer line. but in my opinion, what you're sensing is your machine working a little harder.

All I meant was IF {if being the key** I'm looking for something,then you stand a much better chance of not hurting it than with a machine with pilot controls--no question.I'm not looking to dig things up either by feel without calling Before You Dig.It was meant as a light-hearted, if you will ,post--that's all--really no need for all the seriousness.

[Klutz]

The generic older american backhoe has an open center hydraulic system with gearpumps. In a system like that the force of the bucket depends on the position of the lever (and hence the spool) and the flow (engine rpm). This is a dead simple system that works good enough for most purposes. One of the advantages is that, theoretically, it gives you a chance to "feel" things in the ground. The disadvantage is that effiency goes radically down when you are doing slow movements that require a lot of force.

Today I think most american manufacturers offers a couple of models with a more modern load sensing system using variable axial piston pumps. It's an unfortunate choice of name as this type of hydraulic system does NOT allow you to sense what's in the dirt.
The name comes from the fact that the pump regulator "senses" the pressure on the load side of the valve. The pump then keeps a constant pressure drop across the valve (for any given spool position) regardless of the load and the rpm. The germans sometimes use the word "lastunabhängig" (load independent) which better describes the charachteristics of the system.

While it is certainly possible to make an open center system with pilot controls or a load sensing system with "floor sticks" neither is very common.
It would be like ordering a new car with a powered sun roof and manual crank windows. Maybe that was a poor example but I hope you see what I mean.

This means that both tuney443 and dayexco are absolutely correct in my opinion.

[Klutz]

Maybe I should clearify a little. Dayexco is right when he says that all pilot controls do is remotely actuate the valve body and hence it wouldn't make much difference on the ability to feel something in the ground.

True, but a machine with pilot controls is very likely to have a load sensing system and away goes the ability to feel stuff in the ground, just like tuney443 noticed.

[lgammon]

Maybe I should clearify a little. Dayexco is right when he says that all pilot controls do is remotely actuate the valve body and hence it wouldn't make much difference on the ability to feel something in the ground.

True, but a machine with pilot controls is very likely to have a load sensing system and away goes the ability to feel stuff in the ground, just like tuney443 noticed.

the old 580sl was alot easyer to feel it SEEMED than the 420e we have now it just feels like nothing when you are digging with it. and the fact that when we used to idle the machine down when digging around stuff hence less power so when you hit a little resistance you heard it where as the cat has pretty much the same power full throtal or at idle it doesn't help much

[KeithRA]

I don't know what you guy are talking about pilot controls they are more precise then old style controls.I dig i can feel plastic pipe.My father could feel 1/2 gas pipes with old controls.I make alot of operators scared the way i dig.I can dig all dirt from around utility with machine.I not talking with a worm digger.I have dug up water mains and don't even look taking out dirt on both side of main i can feel it with pilot controls.I start on one side of main go down then into main and back up across top of main then back down on other side.Last week i cut a 3 phase cable inside a building laided 4" deep in concrete with a electric jackhammer and the concrete floor was 16" thick.It cost building owner $8,000 to replace it with wiring overhead in building.

[mflah87]

the old 580sl was alot easyer to feel it SEEMED than the 420e we have now it just feels like nothing when you are digging with it. and the fact that when we used to idle the machine down when digging around stuff hence less power so when you hit a little resistance you heard it where as the cat has pretty much the same power full throtal or at idle it doesn't help much

I'd have to agree with you. I had 580s up untill the case dealer went out and we were a few years without a close dealer and I was worried about parts. I started buying Cats after that and when it comes to feeling sometihng a 580 wins hands down.

[dayexco]

I don't know what you guy are talking about pilot controls they are more precise then old style controls.I dig i can feel plastic pipe.My father could feel 1/2 gas pipes with old controls.I make alot of operators scared the way i dig.I can dig all dirt from around utility with machine.I not talking with a worm digger.I have dug up water mains and don't even look taking out dirt on both side of main i can feel it with pilot controls.I start on one side of main go down then into main and back up across top of main then back down on other side.Last week i cut a 3 phase cable inside a building laided 4" deep in concrete with a electric jackhammer and the concrete floor was 16" thick.It cost building owner $8,000 to replace it with wiring overhead in building.

i would consider you too dangerous, take too many chances to be an operator for me.

[Squizzy246B]

I have found digging away until you hear like an underground explosion followed by a puff off smoke usually means you have found the 415 volt three phase:( :( :( you can also tell by the copper impregnated into the bucket teeth:mad: :crying

[digger242j]

In my opening post, I said:
1111234567890a

Anybody care to share their thoughts on whether or not this is an operationally practical approach to locating buried obstacles?

I guess I should've specified that you have to locate them without breaking them.

[surfer-joe]

We did a huge amount of work with backhoes in the oilfields in Kern County, California, and the soil there can range from mud to rock. Being as busting a line there could mean a water, oil, gas, or live steam spill, or perhaps shorting a 440 3/phase or more electrical setup, digging was done very, very carefully in most cases. Locating by feel with a hoe was verboten!

We used every source we could to locate buried objects and every detection tool known. The boss would hunt up old timers and drag them out to a field for a look-see. A walk-a-round was mandatory for the entire crew, and not just within a few feet of the job site, but way out in a big circle. The oil companies get real ringy when you shut down a few wells because you dug up something, they go nuts when the whole field shuts down. Some of these fields and well locations are over a hundred years old and there is stuff buried everywhere.

In spite of all our best efforts including the above and always using an observer or two and a couple of shovel men, we'd hit something that was not known to be there every once in a while. If we were lucky it was a dead line. Sometimes we weren't so lucky.

Steam lines are about the worse for the crew. Live steam takes the skin off from exposed limbs in a heartbeat, Levi's hardly slow it down, and even lines that have been properly shut down, drained, tagged out, blocked, and ribboned off, will occasionally belch a plug of boiling hot water and then a cloud of steam. That's why most of these are now run on the surface and only go underground where they absolutely have to.

Years ago I hit a gas line in a parking lot with a little Case gas-engine dozer. I couldn't figure out why the engine would race like crazy in one certain area. I did have a cold at the time and couldn't smell a thing. The foreman eventually smelled the gas and came over to see what it was. That line was about 4 inches under the surface.

Does anyone here remember the excavator that hit the high pressure gas line right on I-70 just east of Denver a few years ago. Killed several people and melted several machines and autos. And they knew it was there!!........

Plowing snow around locations, compressor stations, and collector facilities in Michigan is always exciting. The gas companies try their best to mark everything before the snow flies, but they miss some stuff, mostly dead-men, and over a winter sometimes the snow banks cover up the markers. Even a Case 580 will knock a good hole in a pipe or rip wiring off. I used a Michigan 280 rubber-tired dozer most of that winter, and my boss cringed every time I went out of the yard for the day. But boy that baby could move snow!

His brother took out a 2" feeder line coming down from an oil well up on a hill with a 644 Deere loader. It was buried under a snow bank. He hit it right where it joined another line and next thing you know he hollered at me to shut the pump-jack off cause I was right at the wellhead clearing off the location. The break was about a mile downhill from the well, and about two miles from the other. You just can't believe how much crude oil will drain out of those 2" pipes. Fortunately for the bosses brother, these wells were not in the hydrogen sulfide (poison gas) zone. The cleanup cost was huge and involved several companies, it took a week to do, and both wells were shut in and out of production.

I hit a fat communication cable in Arvada, Colorado that connected the missile silos in Wyoming with NORAD in Colorado Springs in 1971. The cable originally was buried 14 feet down from the surface, but the developer that bought the property came in with scrapers and removed all but 2-3 feet of that overburden. The cable was not marked on any plans nor did any city inspectors know about it at the time. The extreme right rear basement corner was staked for a 4 foot cut, and that's about right where I hit the cable. It got pretty exciting there in about an hour or so. Cops, FBI, military folks of all kinds. My boss and I thought we might wind up in prison for a long time……

Myself included, and most other backhoe operators I know, could not feel anything with a backhoe bucket smaller than a 12 inch steel pipe without breaking it. There are exceptions I suppose and of course, other indicators that something's there, but the usual indication is generally hung up in the air on a bucket tooth.

It's not worth the risk or cost to knowingly try to find buried things with a backhoe or excavator, or any other tool other than a small shovel, unless you know for absolute certain they are no good or not being used. That's an assumption, and most here know where that word is in the dictionary.

[digger242j]

In my opening post, I said:
1111234567890a


I just noticed it, and I could've edited the bolded part out, but I'll leave it here for posterity. That is my son Brody's first actual post on the internet.

(That's what I get for walking away from the computer with a reply window open.)

[KeithRA]

What i ment we locate lines by hand i dig around gas, water or what ever by machine.As long as i have seen pipe i can dig around pipe with machine and it get covered i have alist top of pipe uncovered by hand.I offen touch pipe with machine.

[digger242j]

I think any operator worth his salt will be able to dig around water lines as you described, although I've had my rear end chewed on by water authority types complaining that I tore the polywrap around their pipe. On the other hand, I've seen plastic gas service lines cut through by over enthusiastic use of shovels.

[tuney443]

To answer the original question--no,a shovel wielded by an experienced worker is the only safe way to find utilities,Once they're found though and cleaned off for good visibility,then,an experienced operator with a reliable rig can dig around them.Not a place for hot-dogging.

[KeithRA]

The next time i take on a hard job where some foreigner that but the plow before horse.I will make video.I took on a sewer and 12" storm sewer with
5-4' catch basin's with 4' sumps for a guy.He built two townhouses and but in all other services in.I took it in middle of winter with 2' to 3' of frost.I had to run across front of property with 12" storm with catch basin on both lot lines. Then run down both lot lines to rear or building with one ending at corner of rear of building and other in rear of lot in center of building.I had 8'6" on each side of building.I had electric on both sides of building right where storm sewer was going in at.Had to uncover about 90' of electric service on each side about 2' deep on one side.Other side varied 2' to 6" to 2' then 1' then back down.Because it went over a buried patio then over a 4' foundation 25 feet long.I had to remove all concrete to but in storm approx. 6' feet.Its hard removing frost with power and phone in the frost.Then but 4' catch basin in with gas line touching one side electric touching cone on basin 1' from side of frame.I only had 3'8" between gas and electric to install 4' basin with 4' sump.It was touching gas on backside of basin and electric on offset cone.I done all machine work with 130 size machine the only thing my to labors are good for leaning on shovel.I didn't cut any services.

[dayexco]

you were lucky this time.

[Gmads]

I was just thinking about this recently and was looking at the Vermeer site at vacuum excavators. They also had a "ground penetrating radar" set-up that looked pretty cool. It looked like a lawnmower with a screen attached to it. I'd love to see one in person or get feedback from someone that has used one.

[lgammon]

would love to have one of them

[surfer-joe]

I bought a used city municipal vacuum truck some years ago for the tailings job in Grand Junction. We used it primarily to clean out the sumps at the wash stations, but found other uses for it like cleaning up difficult to reach areas where a backhoe or laborers couldn't work very well. Muddy and very wet conditions were it's forte, but it would suck up 12 inch diameter rocks, loose dirt and sand, and even moderately tight soil like nobodies business. Deep holes could be cleaned out without excavating setbacks or disturbing more soil. This was very good at removing fill around fragile water and sewer pipes.

After our project was essentially complete I sent the truck to another tailings cleanup in Utah down by Mexican Hat. The problem there was loose drifting radioactive sand. This had been blown all over the place and every rock and other windbreak for miles had a little sand dune behind, under, and all around it. The vacuum took it all in stride and sucked it up cleanly without making a bigger mess or disturbing much of the terrain.

The enclosed bed on the truck could hold about 6-7 yards. It used a 6V53 Detroit for the vacuum fan. Had a long hydraulically actuated boom and trunk that stuck out over the front. The tandem chassis was an International cab- over, DT466 engine with an Allison auto. Nice rig.

A fellow in southern Colorado used a similar rig to clean out prairie dogs. He'd just lower the trunk over a hole and suck them out. He replaced the impact plate inside the box with an old mattress or something soft so they weren't killed.

A rig like this could save a utility contractor a lot of time and money if he spends most of his day trying to dig around water, sewer, gas, and electric utility piping and connectors.

[MRM99]

A company down the road does it, www.caryloncorp.com look under vacuum excavation

[d4c24a]

I was just thinking about this recently and was looking at the Vermeer site at vacuum excavators. They also had a "ground penetrating radar" set-up that looked pretty cool. It looked like a lawnmower with a screen attached to it. I'd love to see one in person or get feedback from someone that has used one.

we have had one simalar on demo with operator it was not much good
took an awful long time ,when he was done and convinced he had found the water main we dug down and found a large root:beatsme

[dayexco]

i consider myself a "seasoned" operator.........and anybody that tells me that he can "feel"................a power line, a gas line, a water main..........when there are lives at risk, would never be on my payroll. our primary concern should be with the safety of those that work with us. 2nd is the responsibility we have to the owner of the properties that we work on. lastly.........should be our egos

[SouthOnBeach]

i have never been able to feel something as small as a waterline or electrical line. once one is located i can easily dig around it or along it if we need to remove or repair it. but just to go blindly digging for it by feel of the machine, no way.

[biggixxerjim]

i consider myself a "seasoned" operator.........and anybody that tells me that he can "feel"................a power line, a gas line, a water main..........when there are lives at risk, would never be on my payroll. our primary concern should be with the safety of those that work with us. 2nd is the responsibility we have to the owner of the properties that we work on. lastly.........should be our egos

Very well put. Not everybody can be a hero......

[KeithRA]

I find it more scary to have a operator that can't tell the if he's digging in rock or dirt.When your sticking your bucket in the ground and your digging most of the time depending on what kind of soil it is. A operator should tell if there is something in trench harder then soil around it. I lot of times i feel tree roots and have laborer verify what i am feeling before i cut it.Plastic gas services are hard to feel.But i cannot believe a operator can't tell if he's hitting a rock,tree root or a water main.Here where i dig public utility Locator's tend to give bad location.I dig and use soil probe in locating utility's.I probe ditch and take down the ditch to the depths i have probed. when the guy with probe locates it i dig down within to about 6" from pipe.Take the shovel and verify its the utility we are looking for.Then a dig up pipe with machine by digging down on both sides and pushing soil out from under it with the machine. This crap about guys making labors dig the last 3' of soil out by hand digging up a water main. i have also seen guys dig up water main to do tap for water service and don't even dig below pipe with machine.When i do it dig at least 4" below pipe on both side then hand dig small amount from under it.

[dayexco]

I find it more scary to have a operator that can't tell the if he's digging in rock or dirt.When your sticking your bucket in the ground and your digging most of the time depending on what kind of soil it is. A operator should tell if there is something in trench harder then soil around it. I lot of times i feel tree roots and have laborer verify what i am feeling before i cut it.Plastic gas services are hard to feel.But i cannot believe a operator can't tell if he's hitting a rock,tree root or a water main.Here where i dig public utility Locator's tend to give bad location.I dig and use soil probe in locating utility's.I probe ditch and take down the ditch to the depths i have probed. when the guy with probe locates it i dig down within to about 6" from pipe.Take the shovel and verify its the utility we are looking for.Then a dig up pipe with machine by digging down on both sides and pushing soil out from under it with the machine. This crap about guys making labors dig the last 3' of soil out by hand digging up a water main. i have also seen guys dig up water main to do tap for water service and don't even dig below pipe with machine.When i do it dig at least 4" below pipe on both side then hand dig small amount from under it.
operators with all balls and no brains scare the crap outta me.
i wish i had an actual "count" on the yards of material i've moved in my life. in my little world.....i think i'm one of the best operators out there. i think i could squeeze pimples on your arse with excavator teeth....and with the feel of the controls, be able to count the hairs that surround it, that's not the point. do you know the tensile strength of a 1" diameter tree root compared to a 1" plastic gas line? is your "feel" worth that risk? it's not whether or not you or i have the capability of "feeling" the lines...........it's do we want to assume that risk of hurting/killing people that work with us? damaging the property of people we work for?
i'm 53....back in my late 20's, while working for my father....i had a "safe" ditch 8' deep.......caved in, cracked our pipelayer's pelvis. thank GOD he's still alive. he's got stainless steel plates/ screws to hold stuff together. i will NEVER, EVER put myself, or anybody that works for me.....in a predicament like that again....EVER

[KeithRA]

I have seen a boring contractor cut telephone duct and take SBC 3 weeks before they closed hole. The contractor did not pay a dime for repair
miss marked by 7 feet.operator of boring machine said he felt hitting cable pushing 24" casing.He only hit two 3" cables out of about 20.Then he pulled back auger with cable on end of auger back 5 feet without running machine in reverse.The owner of company told me if they don't want it cut don't mis mark it.I got a job to do. There must have been 30 trucks on site.

i have been digging from about 1985,I am not working for no one I'm operating my own equipment and dig carefully and do have locations done.I have only cut a hand full of services all of them being mis marked.I thing if I'm working for my self and don't cut allot utility's.i don't see anything wrong. Like my 79 year old father, If your scared you better stay out of a machine. I was taught by watching my father dig from about 13 years old.I thing 5 or 6 utility's cut in 22 years is not bad.I have dug allot of dirt in 22 years.My father still can dig he's been digging sense 1971.He does not see anything wrong or does the villages or county inspectors that have watched me dig around utility's.

[mflah87]

operators with all balls and no brains scare the crap outta me.
i wish i had an actual "count" on the yards of material i've moved in my life. in my little world.....i think i'm one of the best operators out there. i think i could squeeze pimples on your arse with excavator teeth....and with the feel of the controls, be able to count the hairs that surround it, that's not the point. do you know the tensile strength of a 1" diameter tree root compared to a 1" plastic gas line? is your "feel" worth that risk? it's not whether or not you or i have the capability of "feeling" the lines...........it's do we want to assume that risk of hurting/killing people that work with us? damaging the property of people we work for?
i'm 53....back in my late 20's, while working for my father....i had a "safe" ditch 8' deep.......caved in, cracked our pipelayer's pelvis. thank GOD he's still alive. he's got stainless steel plates/ screws to hold stuff together. i will NEVER, EVER put myself, or anybody that works for me.....in a predicament like that again....EVER


SAfety first if taking a few extra minutes to check on something can save your life or someone elses do it.

[biggixxerjim]

I have seen a boring contractor cut telephone duct and take SBC 3 weeks before they closed hole. The contractor did not pay a dime for repair
miss marked by 7 feet.operator of boring machine said he felt hitting cable pushing 24" casing.He only hit two 3" cables out of about 20.Then he pulled back auger with cable on end of auger back 5 feet without running machine in reverse.The owner of company told me if they don't want it cut don't mis mark it.I got a job to do. There must have been 30 trucks on site.

i have been digging from about 1985,I am not working for no one I'm operating my own equipment and dig carefully and do have locations done.I have only cut a hand full of services all of them being mis marked.I thing if I'm working for my self and don't cut allot utility's.i don't see anything wrong. Like my 79 year old father, If your scared you better stay out of a machine. I was taught by watching my father dig from about 13 years old.I thing 5 or 6 utility's cut in 22 years is not bad.I have dug allot of dirt in 22 years.My father still can dig he's been digging sense 1971.He does not see anything wrong or does the villages or county inspectors that have watched me dig around utility's.

Proper english would make this a LOT easier to read......

[digger242j]

Some people are better able to express their thoughts in writing than others are. I doubt that there's anyone here who intentionally makes their posts difficult to read.

[Tigerotor77W]

I don't know if anyone noticed this, but heavyequipmentforums.com was mentioned in the April 2007 issue of Construction Equipment Magazine!

I'll try to remember to scan it and post it here in the next few days...

[digger242j]

I don't know if anyone noticed this, but heavyequipmentforums.com was mentioned in the April 2007 issue of Construction Equipment Magazine!

I'll try to remember to scan it and post it here in the next few days...

You mean like in this thread? (http://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=3006)

[Tigerotor77W]

You mean like in this thread? (http://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=3006)

Heh.

Once again, my ability to read the entire forum is limited. :rolleyes:

But don't worry; not all engineers are as challenged as I am when it comes to keeping up to date with threads. There is some hope left for customers who actually write to engineers about product improvements...

[tuney443]

I think we're all basically saying the same thing here---safety first,do not break the underground utility,time is money--once you locate the utility and you can clearly see it,then proceed slowly and carefully with your digger,whatever it may be.Dayexco--now that the cat's out of the bag regarding your age--remember that old adage--''listen to your elders''.I'm 54.:D

[dayexco]

I think we're all basically saying the same thing here---safety first,do not break the underground utility,time is money--once you locate the utility and you can clearly see it,then proceed slowly and carefully with your digger,whatever it may be.Dayexco--now that the cat's out of the bag regarding your age--remember that old adage--''listen to your elders''.I'm 54.:D


LOL tuney, i've made so many mistakes in my life, i can't count them. but when it comes to hurting somebody....an experience i've had personally, i feel it gives me the right to bark at the young ones here and hope they hear and learn something from my mistake.
listen and listen well...PLEASE!!!! there is no project you'll ever have in your life, that will offset the grief you'll bear should you kill.....or hurt somebody.
my incident happened when i was young and knew everthing, but this poor guy is full of stainless steel to this day. screws, plates, etc.....think about it...what is another half day of digging/compacting to make an excavation safe, faced with the alternative?

[Water-N-Mine]

I spent alot of time digging in and around utilities. Generally I go with my gut if I feel like there is something there I will stop and go look generally and about 90% of the time I am correct.Alot of this has to do with luck but it's better safe then sorry. I also pay close attention to the soil in the excavation .If it is mixed up or there is definitly trench lines in the wall, then I dig carefully or stop and start looking.
Over the last few years the accidents I have had with breaks. Are due more to mismarks or no mark. This also costs T&M because we have to call ELM (locator service) to come back out. Only to watch them scratch their heads. :Pointhead They have done this most recently to gas and fiber lines which obviously should be marked. I tend to get bent out of shape to the locators over gas or electric more so then anything else.
Infact the last time this happened was over a 2" grey gas line. We were looking to tap a 2" grey PVC waterline. When the guys got down there they noticed a tracer wire. I immediatly knew what it was and it wasn't water. Thank god we didn't try to tap it!:ban I called "one call " and told the operator what happened. She said could couldn't immediatly send someone out. As this could not be an emercency because nothing was broke. It would be a non compliant ticket and there would be someone there in the next two days. I said well do you want me to break it??? Then I can have someone our here in 10 minutes at your companies cost?? :bash She said "I DIDN'T SAY THAT!" I said WELL....get someone out here! A locate truck was there in 30 minutes.:drinkup
Also happened recently over a unmarked fiber that we got lucky and found close to the hard way. It ran the everything for 80 miles south. Glad we didn't hit it either. Woulda been some suits there. Atleast we'd been paid O.T. :drinkup
Moral of the story..never trust a locator....

[Tacodriver]

We refer to a excavator or backhoe as a "positive location device." If it wasen't properly located before well now it is. :bash

[mflah87]

We refer to a excavator or backhoe as a "positive location device." If it wasen't properly located before well now it is. :bash
Amen to that it may have a few nice bends in it after.

[tuney443]

I spent alot of time digging in and around utilities. Generally I go with my gut if I feel like there is something there I will stop and go look generally and about 90% of the time I am correct.Alot of this has to do with luck but it's better safe then sorry. I also pay close attention to the soil in the excavation .If it is mixed up or there is definitly trench lines in the wall, then I dig carefully or stop and start looking.
Over the last few years the accidents I have had with breaks. Are due more to mismarks or no mark. This also costs T&M because we have to call ELM (locator service) to come back out. Only to watch them scratch their heads. :Pointhead They have done this most recently to gas and fiber lines which obviously should be marked. I tend to get bent out of shape to the locators over gas or electric more so then anything else.
Infact the last time this happened was over a 2" grey gas line. We were looking to tap a 2" grey PVC waterline. When the guys got down there they noticed a tracer wire. I immediatly knew what it was and it wasn't water. Thank god we didn't try to tap it!:ban I called "one call " and told the operator what happened. She said could couldn't immediatly send someone out. As this could not be an emercency because nothing was broke. It would be a non compliant ticket and there would be someone there in the next two days. I said well do you want me to break it??? Then I can have someone our here in 10 minutes at your companies cost?? :bash She said "I DIDN'T SAY THAT!" I said WELL....get someone out here! A locate truck was there in 30 minutes.:drinkup
Also happened recently over a unmarked fiber that we got lucky and found close to the hard way. It ran the everything for 80 miles south. Glad we didn't hit it either. Woulda been some suits there. Atleast we'd been paid O.T. :drinkup
Moral of the story..never trust a locator....

Exactly,XX2. Our local power company farms out to a locating company who I have absolutely no faith in.One job that they marked out for me for gas service was 20' off.I knew this before I started digging because all you had to do was line yourself up between the valve by the street and the gas meter on the building---AKA--a straight line!!!When the whiz kid came back upon my insistence,I showed him,he got out his meter,he said ''Wow--I'm getting a stronger reading here than where I first marked out.'' I said no s***,you think? I had to dig in the area of his first mark-out--turned out to be some wire from a demolished building that got buried---that's why I was there to take care of a huge sink hole that almost swallowed a car. This company gets $75 for every mark-out,right or wrong,and each time they come out.I now just call the power company after they leave and tell them there's some problem and they need to come out---just to cover my caboose.

[ForsytheBros.]

Ahhh, the joys of "backhoe locates"!

We are big proponents of disposable cameras prior to/during excavation near existing utilities. Anybody else out there taking jobsite photos?

[dayexco]

every job we do has it's own dig pic file....before, during, after. saves a lot of arguements

[zhkent]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the size of the excavator or backhoe.
There is certainly a direct relationship between the size of the machine and the size of object that would cause enough resistance to feel.

[ronscons]

In Canada generally [and likely US as well], it is illegal to dig within 1/2 meter of any underground facility. [18 in.] with a machine [check out OHS regulations in your province or state]. Line must be hydrovaced, or hand dug till pipe, line, cable etc. can be visually seen. Then sight must be maintained until excavation is complete. It does not matter the consistency of soil or anything else. OHS will shut you down if these requirments are not met. If you proceed, you can be criminally charged. This applies on your own private property as well. Normally the owner of the facility will demand that his representative be on site to witness during excavation and a crossing/encroachment agreement on paper has to be in place as to each party's responsibilities.
Sorry guys, I am really anal about this as should be anyone else involved. I have completed now well in excess of 1200 line crossings in 4 provinces as a consultant for various oil/gas and power companies. All have been successfull with NO pipe strikes by equipment. However I have much personal knowledge of some who weren't so fortunate, and actually a few fatalities, usually the guy sitting in the hoe or crawler seat. When these line strikes happen, the costs in human suffering, material and equipment costs, enviromental damage and lost production become astronomical. Yep, we say we're insured but how do you tell 10 yr. old Johnny that, when his Dad got fried in the cab of his trackhoe when he hit a 6" gas line. Pretty sobering! But we been doing that for 30 years, you protest. Too damn bad-- you been doing it wrong and were real, real lucky for 30 yrs. I close by saying that anyone who sticks hoe teeth in the ground without the safe guards in place is some kind of moron who should not be allowed around any machinery of any kind. "Well, I thought" doesn't cut it.

[surfer-joe]

Well said ronscons! Well said!

[equipment jedi]

Being the new guy I dont want to ruffle any feathers, but finding lines by "feel" can be downright deadly

[Countryboy]

Welcome to HEF equipment jedi! :drinkup

[digger242j]

Being the new guy I dont want to ruffle any feathers, but finding lines by "feel" can be downright deadly

Even if "The Force" is strong within you? :cool2

(Sorry, I couldn't resist.) ;)

Welcome to the forums! :)

[equipment jedi]

I was hesitant to use the Jedi handle, but thats what all my students call me and it was kind of a dare. Being an instructor and always preaching Locates and OSHA Standards its a hard habit to break. And I have been called in to investigate a lot of horrific accidents resulting from finding buried stuff by "feel"

[WScott]

Being the new guy I dont want to ruffle any feathers, but finding lines by "feel" can be downright deadly

I would like to second that opinion, I was digging sewer line on the edge of town for a new strip mall with a 235 CAT, double stacked trench box about
10' away from any utility markings and about 6' down hit something that bogged the kitty down. boss said get with it theres nothing there maybe an old tree root or somthin. I used the bucket curl and bam......
lights went out in half the town. elec main. wow. blew every hydralic hose on the boom and stick and melted half the teeth on the bucket. Not to mention it rocketed the bucket out of the ditch and almost hit my ground man.
Close call. Thanks Miss Utility......

[Countryboy]

Welcome to HEF WScott! :drinkup

[John M]

i consider myself a "seasoned" operator.........and anybody that tells me that he can "feel"................a power line, a gas line, a water main..........when there are lives at risk, would never be on my payroll. our primary concern should be with the safety of those that work with us. 2nd is the responsibility we have to the owner of the properties that we work on. lastly.........should be our egos

I try to listen to my gut feeling .if it seems there could be achance of damage why risk it.ego is our enemy . seems to me most people are to lazy to shovel or even take the time to research the site. every situation has risk . engage brain then backhoe.

[Bearhouse00]

I do not think they are locating items with the backhoe, but are feeling them and stopping before destroying it. I have watched my dad stop while digging and move up just a bit and uncover pipes both PVC and galvanized. Me, I cannot seem to feel anything, but I am sure the experts can.

[aosteelheader]

I have had a fair amount of success with ductile iron if it is big enough!! LOLOLOL Ron

Sounds about right.
Usually right after "feeling it" you get some practice fixing it. :D

[areostar62]

hi new to this

[JS580SL]

Ive had it happen many times were I felt somethan only to find out it was an unmarked utility. Depending on how rough the digging is the easier it be to feel somethan. The more time in the seat the easier it is to tell the difference between a pipe or a rock.

Even the best ops. break things. Just a matter of common sense, paying attention, experience, and safe judgement.

[tylermckee]

Usually end up feeling/seeing the trench line. if something isn't located and its not iron or concrete its usually too late by the time you feel the actual line. If it has been located and you are carefully digging then yes i have felt plenty of lines and not broke them, but much prefer to use a shovel to find them. Most of the utility locates we get are a joke, they are right about 50% of the time, with the exception being the gas company, they are usually within 6"

[dynahoescott]

A wise old operator told me years ago "if you never broke utilities its because you never worked around utilities " I have a pretty good good record of feeling things(both marked and unmarked). But to say you have it down to a science and never break anything , I would have to call that man a liar. However, I swear I can (feel) better with some machines than others. The 190 dynahoe and 580 super e had pretty good sensing capabilities in my opinnion. The 215c and drott 40 and 50 hoes were good for excavators, just my opinnion. I also never run less than full throttle and therefor when looking for utilities you are only fractionally opening the valves and they have less travel to close when you do find something . And you are much more in sync with the machine at full rpm.:usa

[JS580SL]

We install gas main and most times do our own markout for the gas. Some times the gas co does it for us. Every morning I fire the backhoe up and go for a walk, check out all the marks and start poppin off man hole covers and drain grates to double check what might be there whether it be marked or not.

On the subject of utilities I found this vid on you tube. Ouch!
YouTube - Backhoe vs 13200 volts! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lw3k3Un9pNk)

[digger242j]

On the subject of utilities I found this vid on you tube. Ouch!

Those sensitive to profanity are advised that the F bomb is used repeatedly.